"Engineering" in business name

[davidVz]

Hi,

Can anyone advise if they are aware if it is or is not legal to use the term "engineering" in a business name in the state of Michigan without the LLC member being licensed as a P.E. ?

I know there are several states which do have a requirement like this and that the state of Michigan have statues in place regarding the use of Professional Services in business names but have not found anything related specifically to the use of the term "engineering."

Thank you,

David

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[zdas04]

This is really clear. Look at an automobile. The product is all about the engineering. If the car company does the engineering work in house, then no P.E. is needed (the company is selling a product not an engineering service). For the part that is farmed out, the company getting the contract to do engineering services is holding themselves out as offering engineering services and the work needs to be done under the responsible charge of a P.E. If instead of contracting the work to a firm, the car company brings in temp engineers whose effort is directed by the company then the industrial exemption applies and no P.E. is needed.

In your list, none of it requires a P.E. You can design the part, design the process, and design the tooling under the industrial exemption. Remember there is no P.E. stamp on the drawings for Lawn Darts.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

As Dave says, the industrial exemption is quite clear. This is from the California PE Act:

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

TTFN
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[moltenmetal]

The situation is common here: a landscaping company calls itself "Grass Engineering" because it thinks it sounds cool. They file their corporate documents, get letterhead etc., and put an ad somewhere public- used to be the Yellow Pages but of course those days are long gone! They eventually get a "cease and desist" letter from the provincial licensing body when they get noticed, so they make a quick trip to the lawyer...The lawyer tells them they have a couple options: a) change the legal name and pay a whole bunch of money to do so, or b) get their brother-in-law to be their "signatory" P.Eng. for all the "engineering" they do not intend to ever do, have him apply for a C of A on their behalf, pay the C of A fee every year (which is a few hundred bucks tops) and keep the name.

Apparently there are many such companies in Ontario...

 

[urgross]

Makes me wonder right away if Casey Jones could be sued for calling himself an engineer. Guess it doesn't matter, he's dead and so is Jerry Garcia.

 

[zdas04]

The standard code language the NCEES flogs to state legislators has extensive language about train "Engineers" and "Sanitary Engineers" as "being too ingrained in common usage to be modified by registration acts.

The area with the biggest uncertainty is things like the Microsoft Certified Application Engineer programs. No particular education is required (certainly not Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, etc). I know one guy that got a cease and desist order for having "Certified Application Engineer" on his business card. He never did anything with it and they didn't follow up. The P.E. police really hate that one.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

Seriously? Someone ratted him out?

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[zdas04]

The idiot hit on a woman related (wife, daughter, or sister, the story changed with time and alcohol consumption) to someone on the board, and was obnoxious about it. She saw a reason to get even.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[Ron]

From the Michigan Legislature, Act 299

339.2014 Prohibited conduct; penalties.
Sec. 2014.

A person is subject to the penalties set forth in article 6 who commits 1 of the following:

(a) Uses the term “architect”, “professional engineer”, “land surveyor”, “professional surveyor”, [highlight #FCE94F]or a similar term in connection with the person's name unless the person is licensed in the appropriate practice under this article.
[/highlight]
(b) Presents or attempts to use as the person's own the license or seal of another.

(c) Attempts to use an expired, suspended, or revoked license.

(d) Uses the words “architecture”, “professional engineering”, “land surveying”, “professional surveying”, [highlight #8AE234]or a similar term in a firm name without authorization by the appropriate board.
[/highlight]
(e) Submits to a public official of this state or a political subdivision of this state for approval, a permit or a plan for filing as a public record, a specification, a report, or a land survey that does not bear 1 or more seals of a licensee as required by this article. This subdivision does not apply to a public work costing less than $15,000.00 or a residential building containing not more than 3,500 square feet of calculated floor area. As used in this subdivision, “calculated floor area” means that term as defined in section 2012(2)(a).

Using the term "Engineer" or "Engineering" with or without "Professional" in front of it is usurping the engineering profession and, in my opinion and that of many state boards, is illegal. It implies you have qualifications that you don't possess and the clear attempt is to fool the public into thinking you're smarter than the next guy doing the same thing but without the term "engineering" in his business name.