"Engineers don't know everything - they figure things out"

[LearnerN]

Question: are engineers expected to know everything, or do they many times have to just figure it out??

Let me provide some background to my question so you can see where I'm coming from, as this is partly a personal question. I am the only civil engineer working in a pipeline engineering company, and I mostly do pipeline design. (I have about 7 years of engineering work experience in a variety of engineering settings.) In previous jobs, there've always been engineers with more experience than me in any of the work I was doing. But in my current job, I'm used every so often to do some basic civil engineering design for things I've never actually designed before. In my job, I don't have any older more experienced civil engineers to learn from when I'm doing something new in civil engineering. So often I take the civil engineering knowledge I have from school and passing the civil PE...ask plenty of questions at work...see if I can find some industry resource or design guide, and then do the design to the best of my ability.

Is this very typical of how some engineers do things in their jobs? I think I've always kind-of felt this expectation as an engineer that I'm expected to know everything, but the more experience I get in various types of design, the more I think that very often the engineer's role is to do their best to figure out how to do a design or solve some engineering problem. (Hearing from others on this topic would help me feel a little more at peace in better understanding realistic expectations for an engineer. This is something I've wondered about ever since I graduated from college, but just never thought to ask.) Thank you!

 

[oldestguy]

You never quit learning. It never hurts to bounce ideas off those that use your work. Surprising how their common sense sometimes over rides preconceived notions.

 

[cvg]

in larger organizations, quality control involves both peer review and independent technical review. in smaller companies, this is not always possible. of course there is a first time for everything, but hopefully you will know when to raise flags and ask for help when you feel you are out of your comfort zone

 

[LearnerN]

cvg,

You said: "of course there is a first time for everything, but hopefully you will know when to raise flags and ask for help when you feel you are out of your comfort zone"

In a small company, if something would be out of my comfort zone, how would something like that typically be handled by other engineers in similar situations? Hire a consultant with experience in that area?

 

[bimr]

Engineering is the creative application of scientific principles used to plan, build, direct, guide, manage, or work on systems to maintain and improve daily life.

When you are working for a smaller organization, you should expect to be used as a resource. If there is something that you are not familiar with, develop some outside resources that can assist you.

 

[cvg]

unless you are the engineering manager, it is not your job to find the resources, only to express to your management that you are in over your head and that you need help. this is where most get hung up, not wanting to admit that they don't know how to do everything. Clearly, with just 7 years experience you are not expected to know it all.

 

[LittleInch]

Are you expected to know "everything" - Clearly not - no one does or cpould, but you are expected to know the basics.

The key point is to recognise when you don't know the principles or practice enough to either make a good, effective or safe design.

Using codes, design manuals, past calcualtions and drawings and asking as many good people as you can I have always found very interesting and by doing so on occasion you will surprise yourself with how much you have learned and how much engineering "design" is actually cut and paste.....

In a small company you might need to go the extra yard to find out you don't know, but then you front up to your manager and say I've tried this, looked at that and I'm just not comfortable that I have the right experience to design this and certify it, but I can write a scope and provide details for X to do it and certify it.

If you're not sure, make it stronger. Might cost a bit more, but it won't collapse or fall down.



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Twinkie]

When I was a young whipper snapper, my mentor gave me this advice: "you don't need to know the answer, but you should know where to find it."

 

[oldestguy]

Notice how no one so far agrees that you are supposed to figure out how to solve a new task by yourself. I suspect they have been burned at least once. Maybe you can come up with an answer, but if this is the first time, not similar to previous jobs, beware of self confidence. Learning by mistakes is not a good idea.

 

[bimr]

On the contrary, most firms want to hire someone with just 7 years experience (don't want to pay for someone with experience) and then somehow expect the person to do the work. It does not take too long reading the want ads to figure this out.

Perhaps that is the situation here.

 

[miningman]

And isnt there something in our code of ethics about not getting involved in something that we are not qualified to practice. Poor choice of words I know, and mining enginers tend to push the boundaries here more than most, but keep this thought front and centre

 

[Drew08]

If the new task is in your area of expertise, and uses skills you already have mastered. i.e., If you are a geotechnical engineer and have mastered basic geotechnical principals, you may be able to successfully design a pipeline foundation even though you've never done that before. I would never suggest a geotech design a structural support until they've mastered basic structural principals, and never hydraulic design until they've masted hydraulic principals.

For most, 7 years experience, as long as that experience was on task to a specific discipline, is probably sufficient to master an area of expertise, but two or three or more areas, probably not.

On another note: If I was going into surgery, I would not want a doctor who is just "figuring it out". In surgery, people die. When civil projects fail, people die. How much liability are you willing to take on? I imagine the "I was figuring it out" testimony won't hold much water with a jury.

 

[LearnerN]

Drew08, to be more specific about my situation, I guess it would be more accurate to say "new" things would be designing some different type of basic structural support, so the analysis is moreso what I'm trying to figure out exactly and since every type of support is different. Yes, I feel confident about having mastered the basics of structural analysis and design, and I do have some work experience designing some foundations. But even if a person has designed equipment foundations, there's still something new and different about figuring out how to analyze and design a retaining wall or an electrical building slab or a sonotube support for a light pole. It's not that I'm speaking as having no structural background or training/knowledge, it's just a learning curve to ensure any different type of basic structure is designed right.

 

[Drew08]

I agree with you on a basic level. The reason most people love engineering is the opportunity to do new things and work on new and different projects.

Again, flip side, if you ever feel pressured to provide design services outside your comfort level, or told to stamp something you're not absolutely sure about, then I would have deep reservations about working for that company. Remember you are personally liable for anything you stamp, not your boss who is telling you to stamp it. It is common to hire a sub-consultant to review designs, essentially paying someone to take on some of the risk.

In some states a Structural PE is separate from a Civil PE, so if you are stamping structural designs, make sure you have the proper licensing for your state (I think CA & IL to name a couple).

 

[LearnerN]

Drew08, thank you for the caution and wisdom, and I couldn't agree with you more. I'm actually thinking of one future project involving some structural design where I'm going to say a consultant will be needed for the design. And I will take your advice to recommend a sub-consultant for design review on some projects as well. (FYI, I've only been asked to do a couple structural designs so far while employed at my company and these have all been in my comfort level, so I'm mostly thinking ahead at this point especially now that I'm a PE.)

 

[LearnerN]

Drew08, do you have any ideas how I could look up for various states if they consider the structural-civil PE as separate from the civil PE?

 

[civilman72]

Engineers like to consider worse-case scenarios and plan around that, both for our designs and our careers. In this specific case, your worse-case scenario is sitting in court in front of a prosecuting attorney explaining what expertise your relied on for your structural design that just failed. If you show little previous experience you are basically a sitting duck for the prosecution.

So, if you're trying to determine if you have the proper experience to certify a design, I would imagine yourself justifying this in front of a judge and attorney in court.

 

[Drew08]

No central source. You would have to go to each states licensing authority and check if there is a licence option for SE, or Structural Engineer. I don't know the full list (CA and IL are the only ones I can name), but it is typically in states that have somewhat complicated building codes like California's earthquake issues. They probably each differ as well as to what separates a general PE from an SE, and when you might need the SE. There is a Structural Forum that might be a better place to ask that question.

 

[bimr]

NSPE is a good resource for licensure of structural engineers in the U.S.:

http://www.nspe.org/resources/blogs/pe-licensing-blog/licensure-structural-engineers-current-status