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"Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......" 5
- Thread starter MJCronin
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jmw, I have a Skype account and plenty of bandwidth. I walk around frequently and like to easily mute/unmute the conversations.
SNORGY, go ahead, start typing........... I was the brunt of arrogance today and just listened. I haven't reacted and will think long and hard about doing business with them.
SNORGY, go ahead, start typing........... I was the brunt of arrogance today and just listened. I haven't reacted and will think long and hard about doing business with them.
ThermoCivil
Civil/Environmental
I can say, an engineer with an MBA is a killer combination.
My MBA was the hardest endeavor i've done in my life. Harder than engineering and I come from a 5 year engineering school.
The problem with engineers is that they do the grunt work but their lack of social skills hurt them at the time of promotions. It hurt me for sure.
My two cents from having worked in different consulting firms is that engineers as a group do not have a good grasp about business strategy (my own observation). The managers of the firm keep doing the same strategies year after year and when the market tanks is too late. Niches are a killer...
Good engineers can make great products, however, excellent engineers will make products (or a service) that people want.
My MBA was the hardest endeavor i've done in my life. Harder than engineering and I come from a 5 year engineering school.
The problem with engineers is that they do the grunt work but their lack of social skills hurt them at the time of promotions. It hurt me for sure.
My two cents from having worked in different consulting firms is that engineers as a group do not have a good grasp about business strategy (my own observation). The managers of the firm keep doing the same strategies year after year and when the market tanks is too late. Niches are a killer...
Good engineers can make great products, however, excellent engineers will make products (or a service) that people want.
OK...to be fair...and I am only going to say this ONCE...ever...
The best and smartest client I ever had was a person with a P.Eng. plus (*GASP!*) an MBA. But, that person never let one degree (with its flavour) get in the way of the other degree (with its flavour).
That said...
If *all* a person has is an MBA, *my personal experience* is such as to suggest that those types of folks need to find other businesses besides engineering to "lead". Engineering should be run by engineers.
Regards,
SNORGY.
The best and smartest client I ever had was a person with a P.Eng. plus (*GASP!*) an MBA. But, that person never let one degree (with its flavour) get in the way of the other degree (with its flavour).
That said...
If *all* a person has is an MBA, *my personal experience* is such as to suggest that those types of folks need to find other businesses besides engineering to "lead". Engineering should be run by engineers.
Regards,
SNORGY.
When was the last time any of us calculated a solution to partial differential equation? Drew a free body diagram? Calculated a stress-strain relationship? Oh, it was in school? Since you graduated, have you done any of the things you learned how to do in school?
An Engineering degree is an indication that you are capable of learning some truly esoteric things, but mostly it is an indication that you have the ability to approach problems logically.
An MBA is an indication that you can master the range of skills that are required to run a business.
These two skill sets are not mutually exclusive. An MBA that cannot approach problems logically will always make a lousy line (or engineering) manager. An engineer who is unable to run an economic model or evaluate a supply chain or treat people as humans instead of cogs will always be a lousy line (or engineering) manager.
Someone who has demonstrated both sets of skills has a really good chance of success in management even if they lack formal credentials in either area. I've worked for MBA's that were effective managers. I've worked for engineers that were effective managers. I've worked for people without either credential who were effective managers. The conversed of all of those statements is also very true--I've seen MBA's, engineers, and "others" who were horrible at managing people, projects, and companies.
A degree is just an indicator of a persons ability to show some level of mastery of a specific list of esoteric subjects. Beyond that, it is just a piece of paper.
David
An Engineering degree is an indication that you are capable of learning some truly esoteric things, but mostly it is an indication that you have the ability to approach problems logically.
An MBA is an indication that you can master the range of skills that are required to run a business.
These two skill sets are not mutually exclusive. An MBA that cannot approach problems logically will always make a lousy line (or engineering) manager. An engineer who is unable to run an economic model or evaluate a supply chain or treat people as humans instead of cogs will always be a lousy line (or engineering) manager.
Someone who has demonstrated both sets of skills has a really good chance of success in management even if they lack formal credentials in either area. I've worked for MBA's that were effective managers. I've worked for engineers that were effective managers. I've worked for people without either credential who were effective managers. The conversed of all of those statements is also very true--I've seen MBA's, engineers, and "others" who were horrible at managing people, projects, and companies.
A degree is just an indicator of a persons ability to show some level of mastery of a specific list of esoteric subjects. Beyond that, it is just a piece of paper.
David
ThermoCivil
Civil/Environmental
Agreed, a lot of MBA's are at the epicenter of all that has happened since 1999-2001. No argument on that one.
See, a lot of MBA's have undergrads in non technical areas. They go to a top tier school such as Harvard to do their MBAs. They then get hired at the big banks and a bunch of them do not have solid finance, accounting, and/or investing fundamentals and that is where the fun starts. Sure they are smart, and because they know they are smart they get cocky. Mistakes happen.
I recommend the book When Genius Failed about Nobel prize winners from MIT that were running a hedge fund. Smart guys with super high IQs. They calculated that their worst case scenario had a probability of .0000000000000001 chance of happening(do not remember the exact zeros). They had to be bailed out by the Fed and banks during the 1997 Asian contagion because their worst case scenario came true.
Morale of the story. Some MBAs are super great and some are bad. It happens in every professional field. IQ and preparation alone are not enough. The intangibles matter as well.
See, a lot of MBA's have undergrads in non technical areas. They go to a top tier school such as Harvard to do their MBAs. They then get hired at the big banks and a bunch of them do not have solid finance, accounting, and/or investing fundamentals and that is where the fun starts. Sure they are smart, and because they know they are smart they get cocky. Mistakes happen.
I recommend the book When Genius Failed about Nobel prize winners from MIT that were running a hedge fund. Smart guys with super high IQs. They calculated that their worst case scenario had a probability of .0000000000000001 chance of happening(do not remember the exact zeros). They had to be bailed out by the Fed and banks during the 1997 Asian contagion because their worst case scenario came true.
Morale of the story. Some MBAs are super great and some are bad. It happens in every professional field. IQ and preparation alone are not enough. The intangibles matter as well.
Snorgy, you are in good company. With some notable exceptions, the MBAs that I have personally worked with have demonstrated very little (or no) engineering ability. However, they tend to be the ones who make the final call on important engineering decisions. It obviously makes no business sense to have non-technical people make technical decisions, but it seems to be prevalent in industry. Why?
In college the students who couldn't cut it in engineering tended to migrate over to the business school. Business courses are relatively easy in comparison to an engineering curriculum, and many of these technically challenged students ended up with an MBA. They couldn't earn an engineering degree, but they ultimately ended up with something far superior: having the engineering professionals in their companies reporting directly to them.
Nobody ever said that corporate cultures were supposed to make sense.
Maui
In college the students who couldn't cut it in engineering tended to migrate over to the business school. Business courses are relatively easy in comparison to an engineering curriculum, and many of these technically challenged students ended up with an MBA. They couldn't earn an engineering degree, but they ultimately ended up with something far superior: having the engineering professionals in their companies reporting directly to them.
Nobody ever said that corporate cultures were supposed to make sense.
Maui
Please, don't interpret my comments as an endorsement of the MBA culture. MBA's (and their rabid relation, PhD's in Business) were the source of "Supply Chain Management" which is absolutely the bain of my existence. MBA's came up with the concept of "core competencies" that have led to my industry outsourcing lease operation for god's sake (if operating oil wells is not a core competency of an OIL COMPANY then I really don't know why we're here).
I've seen engineers do really stupid technical things. I've seen MBA's do really stupid commercial things. I've also seen engineers who were effective leaders (the best boss I ever had was an engineer and now she's an HR manager) and MBA's who could effectively manage a technical group. Either degree is proof that you could more or less master a predefined set of material. That is all. A banker who turns his finance department over to an untested MBA is behaving in an irresponsible manner. That doesn't say that the MBA degree is worthless, just that it is not reasonable to call it a qualification.
David
I've seen engineers do really stupid technical things. I've seen MBA's do really stupid commercial things. I've also seen engineers who were effective leaders (the best boss I ever had was an engineer and now she's an HR manager) and MBA's who could effectively manage a technical group. Either degree is proof that you could more or less master a predefined set of material. That is all. A banker who turns his finance department over to an untested MBA is behaving in an irresponsible manner. That doesn't say that the MBA degree is worthless, just that it is not reasonable to call it a qualification.
David
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