"Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job" 21

[lookintomyeyes]

I work for a large, publicly owned company. At a recent event for "young professionals", a speaker recommended that we "never spend mroe than 5-7 years in any job". The speaker was once an engineer, but has now moved "up" in the company through design, project management, etc to a full time management position.

Do you agree with his recommendation?
In our company, the average employee, for whatever reason, only spends 2-3 years in each position they take. From what I've seen, this has been leaving several engineering departments without experienced, knowledgeable staff. Additionally, there is the "expectation" that all engineers will move into management positions. The company has just created "engineering expert" positions to entice people to stay in design-type engineering roles, but the management stream still appears to be winning. Add to that the flux of retirees exiting the company, and it's easy to see why more and more work is going to consultants. (Personally I get nervous when I see someone outside the company design somethign, while we just maintain it, but thats another discussion.)

I'll admit that I'm young and therefore perhaps naive/foolish, but I look forward to spending as many years as it takes to become an expert in my field. If I get bored I may move, but I do not wish to move just to sample various areas of engineering. I've also had my taste of management and find it too stressful for my liking. There will be others for whom it is a perfect fit, but for others...I think they are being pushed into a role because of said "get out after 5-7 years!" rule.


Comments? Is anyone else (company-wise or personally) experiencing the same thing?

(Lastly, please forgive me if this has been posted/discussed before)

 

[HgTX]

Some of what's in the article Twoballcane cites sounds reasonable, and some is crap.

Myth #3: You'll be happier if you have a job you like.

They're right in that having a job you like doesn't guarantee overall happiness. But having a job you don't like will sure as hell decrease your overall quality of life.


Myth #4. The glass ceiling still exists.

Their logic for calling this a myth is that "no one is climbing to the top". That doesn't mean the glass ceiling doesn't exist for women who still want to climb.


Myth #5. Going to grad school open doors.

"Grad school generally makes you less employable, not more. For example, people who get a graduate degree in the humanities would have had a better chance of surviving the Titanic than getting a tenured teaching job."

The initial "myth" as stated is highly discipline-dependent, and their example is rather stupidly stated. Are they saying that one would have a better chance of getting a tenured teaching job by forgoing the graduate degree? Choosing to go into an academic field may (depending on the field) be a tighter job market, but it's not the degree itself that makes the market tight, it's the overall career choice.


I'm not sure what audience exactly they're aiming at.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Twoballcane]

HGTX

Yeah I kinda agree with you there. However, I think they are targeting the Mullinium generation. I must be getting too old to have a different opion from the younger generation.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[IRstuff]

Whoever, "they" are, they ain't here.

Myth #1 -- BS, it certainly ruins resumes for us.
Someone who's had 8 jobs in 14 yrs doesn't even make it to an interview. Defense and aerospace product cycles are quite long, so an average 1.5 yrs on each job barely gets you through product design, and hence, no lessons learned.

Myth #3 -- BS, she's writing poppycock. Published surveys of lawyers really don't show that much disatisfaction among lawyers:

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/pulse_of_the_legal_profession/

Myth #4 -- BS, she picked extreme data points as examples of the norm. It's juvenile writing and pathetic statistics to boot.

Myth #6 -- Poppycock again, so does she think that a likeable slacker will get good things? Rubbish.


TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[zdas04]

God, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who hated that list. All my life, when I was happy at work everyone in the family knew it immediately and took blatant advantage of it. When things weren't going so well I got left the hell alone. All that without me every saying a word about how things were going.

The nonsense about the glass ceiling was the biggest pile of garbage I'd read outside of purposeful satire. For people who didn't want to climb, there never was a glass ceiling. For people who did, there were (and still are) a huge number of very specific filters that make most of us ineligible. After a career of watching the golden path from the bottom, the single defining characteristic was not race, gender, religion, or (probably)sexual preference--the defining characteristic was that you had to be a tiny bit smarter than average, you had to have zero scruples about stabbing a coworker, you couldn't have a home life, and you had to be willing to work 100 hours/week. It looked like there were extra hoops for the female sharks because no one on the other side of that ceiling wanted to have to deal with sharks with maternal urges, but once a woman had exhibited adequate soullessness I saw a bunch of them move above that ceiling.

David

 

[KENAT]

Zdas, I think I'm with you on this topic.

For those of you who think it's a generational thing I'm only just out of my 20s if you want a data point.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Twoballcane]

I agree with guys, however, I know (even defense) companies are changing their thinking of how to hire the next generation of engineers (or employees) to something like this list. Just like Gen X brought in the dress down Fridays (and I think got rid of the tie all together for engineers) and 9/80 weeks, the Millenniums will change the work landscape in some form or fashion.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[Gymmeh]

I just hope that alot of people read that and think being a friendly, lazy, and an under achiever is a good thing... improves the jobs for the rest of us!

 

[daddymem]

Mid 30's one company since graduation (10 years this June). We are being gobble up my a huge firm so this may be my first move depending on how things go. I hope the length of my time at one place is a help to my resume.

 

[AusSteelMan]

Like everything in life, it is all about balance. Happiness, opportunity to learn, work/life balance, cash, security, safety and I am sure many more.

Personally, I am nearly 33 and have been employed at the same Company for 15 years in mid January. For this, I get Long Service benefits, security (relatively), stability for family, flexibilty in hours and a reasonably good salary.

Being a "big" Australian steel company, I feel that I have "changed jobs" about 3 times now. Each time building, skills, experience, credability, salary, etc.
I have been able to work in several departments, and been part of 3 very significant projects/developments for the company.

First four years was a traineeship where rotation around parts of the plant was part of the deal.
Next 3 years was at a Thin Strip Casting development project (electric steelmaking, casting and rolling mills experience). The next step for this project was commercial development in the USA. In effect, needed a new job, but ended up being basically head-hunted for the next job.
Next 5 years was at an Air Separation, Hydrogen and Compression Plant. Vastly different plant to steelmaking. This plant was outsourced and I probably could have gone with it, but decided to stay in the company, due mainly to the offer put to me.
Next 3 years was spent in the Gas Distribution section. "just a bunch of pipes and a couple of gasholders". Yeah right, this was a great new challenge.

Just now have been requested to join a new capital project to build a new steam generation and power plant since the existing one is at end of life. This will proably be the biggest ever single development in the steelworks (nearly twice that of a new Blast Furnace). This will [probably] take up the next 5 years, at which point, I will be able to move into the long term "ownership" of this plant.

So basically what i am saying is, that new challenges are usually good to have, but so are many of the other attributes that everyone in this thread has discussed. In many respects it is a personal choice. So keep all the thoughts that others have expressed in mind as you progress through your working life.

As you say, there are good things about having expertise, but part of that is having the experience to know what expertise you need.

Sure, by the time I give the steel game away, I will have only dealt with the steel industry, but my main aim in life is enjoy my life, not just be able to say [on a tombstone] that I worked here there and everywhere. (Not that i saying I will stay until I retire or die, just at the moment there is not enough reason to seriously look elsewhere)

Finally, I wish all of you well for the season that is upon us now [regardless of what your particular beliefs are], and I look forward to hearing your points of view in the new year.

Best Regards,
Darren

 

[Joshmo]

I don't think anyone mentioned this...Changing jobs frequently may increase one's pay too much. If someone gets around 20% raise every time they change jobs, this may cause their pay requirements to be too high for the kind of work they do, thus causing them to be a less desirable employee. Who wants to hire a $120k/year cad jockey?

I'm 32 and at my third job since getting my bsme. I've been baited with stock options and profit sharing at my current job so I'll be around here for awhile.

 

[PSE]

If you are happy with where you are in your career there is little incentive to move on. You can find your own opportunities based on your goals rather than following someone elses "professional" recommendation. Trying to force your career into a particular timeline in my opinion can lead to having to make some pretty poor choices. Career coaches can provide input but you have the final say in the choices you make.

With the same sentiments as AusSteelMan, the very best to all for the holiday season.

Regards,

 

[Twoballcane]

I don't think anybody is being forced to do anything, this is more of a guidline or even a trend of what people (or young professionals) are doing these days. With the culture of layoffs, it may be smart to jump at the peak than being drag down with the ship. As with anything, programs, projects, products,...etc, all have a life cycle and typically it is about 5 to 7 years. Which is funny enough the length of time I spend at a company. I have left just at the peak just in time to avoid layoffs. I have avoided two of them. When you see that another company has won a big program or has a great product in the pipe line that they need to get to market, I say go for it.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[ScottyUK]

I don't think anyone mentioned this...Changing jobs frequently may increase one's pay too much. If someone gets around 20% raise every time they change jobs, this may cause their pay requirements to be too high for the kind of work they do, thus causing them to be a less desirable employee.

If an employer wants to increase my pay to a level above the market rate out of generosity or in an attempt to price me off the market then I would be delighted to accept the money. In the mean time, if I decide that working for that employer has become intolerable for some reason then I'll find another employer. In the mean time at least I'll have the extra money. Nothing says you can't take a pay cut to improve your quality of life if you feel it is right to do so.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[EngineerDave]

This thread has made me feel better. One of the things I hate about my resume is my frequency of job hopping. I recently left a very prestigous place for a 20% pay raise and a 30% lower cost of living and also a chance to live back in my hometown (can't put a price on that, although boredom does set in at times!).

So heres my stats from 1993 on.

Two co-op jobs from 1993-1996.

3rd job total- First job out of engineering school stayed for 11 months. Due to poor management, poor pay and an ill advised relationship with a secretary. I quit after lining up the next one

4th job-second out of engineering school- Automotive field. Pretty good job, 20% better pay initially and then another 25% raise when I went from contracting to full time with them. Stayed for 4 years with them then got a leave of absence to get the master degree I always wanted. Planned on returning was unfortunately not given the option due to post 9/11 freeze. This actually turned out to be a good thing as I started working a second masters degree in another technical field related to engineering. Commuted 1 hour each way for this so that was a bummer, plus a lot of travel.

5th job (third out of engineering school)- went into this one knowing I was going to leave at some point. I just did this job as I finished my second masters. Stayed for 15 months. It was great knowing that this one was just to help pay tuition. It was kind of a bad work environment and if I was planning on staying there fulltime the stress level would have been pretty damn high. It was also my shortest commute (less than 10 minutes!).

6th job 4th out of engineering school(new city, new field). I got into the medical field and this was the best salary, but I moved to an expensive city. In this case, it was like starting at square one and had a lot to learn. Stressful field, stressful environment with little support at times and some bad coworkers, but some great ones as well. Good time and bad times abound. Left only because I was offerred a job at a great increase back in my hometown which is alot cheaper to live in. It was a bit difficult to leave in some ways as this was a fun town to live in. Met my current gf here (have dated a fair share of girls, but this one moved back to my hometown with me and we'll likely get married soon). Stayed 13 months, had hoped to stay for 3 years or so, but had to go when this offer came up since I had turned down the job in my hometown before (only because I had already accepted the job in this new city).

7th job- Same field as previous one, better pay but sometimes the hours are considerably more. Can be quite stressful. Since it's in my hometown may stay awhile, but still get wonderlust. Have gotten raises the last two years. Sometimes deal with bad working conditions (old equipment, negative coworker attitudes and a few lazy coworkers). Also alot of good people here. Been here now for 18 months.

Even though I'm in a slightly different field now, I still keep my PE license active. I'm also hoping to finish the certification process in this field. It will require at least passing two more tests (i passed the first) and earliest completion is 2009.

 

[MedicineEng]

I just saw the article on Boston Globe.
This is BS from first to last word.
This just proves that anybody can write anything and publish a book on it.
I really woudl like to know where Mrs. Trunk got the information that she mentions on the article...

 

[PSE]

After 7 years in my current position, I have been asked to join the "dark side" and embark upon a more managerial path (same company). This would place me on average in th 7 year per position group.

Regards,

 

[plasgears]

I had a friend who ran a small print shop serving large and small clients. He welcomed turnover in the labor force because he didn't want to continue giving annual raises to ordinary workers.

The analogy in engineering is interesting. Nobody enjoys laying off professional workers, but if they leave routinely after a period of time, there is the opportunity to hire new experts in emerging fields. One that comes to mind is fracture mechanics. I had an attached MME grad who helped upgrade our engineering design based on fracture. It also helped educate our clients, too.

Making yourself available to others can create interesting new jobs in emerging fields. During the early days of cruise missile development a number of my coworkers were moving into smaller turbine engine mfrs. They discovered that there is such a thing as a low cost, expendable turbine engine.

 

[Cheeseburger]

Just my two cents ...

While I have to agree with zdas ... I do have this to offer:

I'm in my early 40's and have changed jobs 5 times since graduating. In my experience working for a small company (less than 150 people) can lead to burn-out quicker than if you work for a larger company.

However when I worked for a much larger corporation (more than 1,000) you become just a number as it's been stated earlier.

At this larger company I had very little opportunity to move up the corporate ladder because I was in a department that had almost 100 people. Plus a good percentage of these people had been there for 20+ years and hadn't been promoted in the past 10 years.

At one small company I got to a certain point where there was nothing for me to move into ... meaning there was no place else for me to grow. So should I have stayed there and become stagnant or look for other opportunities else where ?

So far in my career I've only worked at one company where I knew that I didn't want to make a long term comittment. Luckily for me I was only there for 1 year.

Other than that, when ever I've interviewed at a new company I have been lucky enough to accept an offer from only those companies that I've wanted to make a career there. I'm hoping to stay with my current employer (3+ years) for quite a while.

I like the advice my father gave me many years ago ... "I work to Live, I don't live to work."

Cheers ...

 

[klyde]

Well I'm 71 and held 4 different jobs in 27 years. However the last one was doing Star Wars work in the Kwajalein Atoll. The scuba diving and sailing were out of sight. Working for the US Army was another story. An MIT engineer that I knew (I think he was a certified genius) said it plainly. "You come to work here with two buckets. One is for the money and the other is for the B.S. No one ever leaves with a full bucket of money." It followed for me. I arrived full of P&V with experience and awards in my field looking forward to making a contribution and that P&V lasted for a couple of years before the B.S. took over. I found my career being much more influenced by bureacracy than technical challenges. I went into each new position feeling like I could contribute to my perception of what the organization goals were. Each time I found that the real goals of upper management were not the stated goals.
Yeah maybe 5 years is enough to get you B.S. bucket overflowing and time to dump it and go to a new spot with a new bucket.

 

[EddyC]

klyde,

I have a different way of saying what you said: "You start a new job and your employer starts to poison you slowly with arsenic. In the beginning, the effect is small, but it eventually builds up to toxic levels. You then purge yourself of the arsenic's effects by changing jobs. The new job begins again the cycle of progressive poisoning. And so on and so on."