QW-200.4 of ASME Sec. IX_Combination of Welding Procedures

[sushildwivedi16]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post here. Hope to find the solution to my query with respect to QW-200.4 of ASME Sec. IX.

Here I go!!

PQR A is qualified in 25 mm base metal thickness with 10 mm of GTAW & 15 mm of SMAW weld deposits. PQR B is qualified in 8 mm base metal thickness with 3 mm of GTAW & 5 mm of SMAW weld deposits. In both the PQRs, the tensile and bend tests have been carried out satisfactorily.

Can I generate a single WPS of GTAW process only with base metal thickness range as 1.5-50 mm, GTAW weld deposit max thickness - 20 mm ?

The production joint thicknesses are 4.55 mm and 12 mm and do not require impact testing and have to be welded entirely with GTAW process only.

Also can I generate a second WPS of GTAW+SMAW process with base metal thickness range as 1.5-50 mm, GTAW weld deposit max thickness - 20 mm, SMAW process weld deposit max thickness - 30 mm ?

Thanks to all in advance.

 

[metengr]

Can I generate a single WPS of GTAW process only with base metal thickness range as 1.5-50 mm, GTAW weld deposit max thickness - 20 mm ?

To answer your first question, no because you are stating a single process, GTAW. As such, the qualified base metal thickness would equal the weld deposit thickness for this WPS, so the GTAW process would be qualified to 20mm with a base thickness range to 20mm using PQR A.


WPS GTAW process, BM thickness range of 1.5mm to 20mm, and weld deposit thickness range of 1.5mm to 20mm.

Also can I generate a second WPS of GTAW+SMAW process with base metal thickness range as 1.5-50 mm, GTAW weld deposit max thickness - 20 mm, SMAW process weld deposit max thickness - 30 mm ?

Yes.

 

[sushildwivedi16]

Thanks metengr. I came across an interpretation which got me confused with respect to reply to question 1 & 3.

Standard Designation: BPV Section IX
Edition/Addenda:
Para./Fig./Table No:
Subject Description: QW-200.4(b)
Date Issued: 12/08/2011
Record Number: 10-1966
Interpretation Number : IX-10-34
Question(s) and Reply(ies): Background: PQR A is welded with SMAW to join 5/8 in. (16 mm) thick plates with 5/8 in. (16 mm) of SMAW deposit. PQR B is welded with GTAW and SAMW to join 5/16 in. (8 mm) thick plates with 1/8 in. (3 mm) of GTAW and 3/16 in. (5 mm) of SMAW deposit. PQR C is welded with GTAW to join 3/16 in. (5 mm) thick plates with 3/16 in. (5 mm) of GTAW deposit.
Question (1): Do PQRs A and B qualify the combination WPS for a base metal thickness range of 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) to 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) when impact testing is not required?

Reply (1): No.

Question (2): Do PQRs A and B qualify the combination WPS for a base metal thickness range of 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) to 1 1/2 in. (38 mm) when impact testing is not required?

Reply (2): No.

Question (3): Do PQRs A and B qualify the combination WPS for a maximum deposit weld metal thickness range of 1/4 in. (6 mm) for the GTAW process and 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) for the SMAW process?

Reply (3): No.

Question (4): Do PQRs A and C qualify the combination WPS for a maximum deposit weld metal thickness range of 3/8 in. (10 mm) for the GTAW process and 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) for the SMAW process?

Reply (4): No.

Question (5): Do PQRs A and C qualify the combination WPS for a base metal thickness range of 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) to 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) when impact testing is not required?

Reply (5): No.

Question (6): Do PQRs A and C qualify the combination WPS for a base metal thickness range of 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) to 1 1/2 in. (38 mm) when impact testing is not required?

Reply (6): No.

Question (7): Do the provisions in QW-200.4(b) affect the responses to the above questions?

Reply (7): No.

 

[DekDee]

sushildwivedi16,
Have another read of QW 200.4(b) and it may become clearer.
To enable the combination of two PQR's to give the range noted in the interpretation (Q 1 & 3) then PQR B would have to be at least 1/2"(13 mm) thick.
You cannot combine your two PQR's and achieve the range you noted above as again, does not comply with QW 200.4 (b)


Not sure what your problem is with your production joints ?
Welding GTAW only as per interpretation below

Interpretation: IX-92-97
Subject: Section IX, QW-200.4(a), Combination of Welding Procedures
M-92-97-IX-92-99
Date Issued: May 20, 1994
File: BC94-167
Question: According to QW-200.4(a), when a qualified WPS for a combination process is available,
must a new WPS be generated if only one of the processes is to be used in production, provided
all requirements of Section IX for the process used are met?
Reply: No.

gives you this range
PQR A - BM 5-50 mm / WM GTAW max 20 mm (this is fine for your 12 mm production joints)
PQR B - BM 1.5 - 16 mm / WM GTAW max 6 mm (this is fine for your 4.55 mm production joints)

Cheers,
DD

 

[sushildwivedi16]

Dekdee

My client insists that I generate separate WPS specifying GTAW only to weld both the joints.

And hence the question whether I can make one WPS of GTAW with BM range as 1.5-50 mm /WM GTAW - 20 mm max or I need to make two different WPSs, each specifying GTAW only but ranges as suggested by you.

 

[metengr]

You cannot have a BM thickness range of up to 50mm using all GTAW with your PQR's you provided. The limit for the WPS using GTAW only will be 5mm to 20mm max weld deposit thickness.

 

[sushildwivedi16]

metengr

Does this means that for a corner joint that is made between 4.55 mm and 26 mm BM thicknesses with a weld deposit of 4.55 mm only, I will have to qualify a new PQR to cover the BM thickness range ?

 

[DekDee]

metengr,
Please advise why PQR A is not valid to 50 mm BM as I noted ?

PQR A - BM 5-50 mm / WM GTAW max 20 mm (this is fine for your 12 mm production joints)

sushildwivedi16,
Have another look at what I have posted
4.55 mm is less than the 5 mm minimum qualified so yes, you will need another PQR for that range.
Cheers,
DD

 

[metengr]

DekDee
PQR A can indeed be used to support a WPS for 50mm base metal thickness. Using QW-451 as long as I select a weld coupon thickness and perform welding with a process, I can take credit for 2T for the BM and 2t for the weld deposit. I was thinking of full penetration groove welds versus partial penetration weld qualification, which defaults back to QW-451.

For the corner joint, a new PQR is necessary as you stated.

 

[david339933]

I am confused at these responses. DekDee/Metengr, can you explain why he can't combine PQR B with A to achieve 1.5-50mm qualified thickness?

 

[metengr]

Confusion perhaps related to the reference to QW-200.4 (b) in trying to combine PQR's, which may have derailed the thread and responses. Taking a step back and using the simplest approach, multiple PQR's can support a single WPS. In this sense PQR A was qualified with a BM thickness range of 5mm to 50mm as mentioned above using GTAW and SMAW processes. Now a second PQR B is developed and qualified for a BM thickness range of 1.5mm to 16mm with GTAW and SMAW. Both PQR's A and B can be used to support a single WPS for a BM thickness range of 1.5mm to 50mm using the GTAW max deposit thickness and SMAW max deposit thickness.

 

[david339933]

Exactly....and therefore no new PQR required.

 

[DekDee]

Guys,
My apologies - I was getting tied up with QW 200.4 and basing my comments on the negative responses in the interpretation above.
What is really confusing is this

Interpretation Number : IX-10-34
Question(s) and Reply(ies): Background: PQR A is welded with SMAW to join 5/8 in. (16 mm) thick plates with 5/8 in. (16 mm) of SMAW deposit. PQR B is welded with GTAW and SAMW to join 5/16 in. (8 mm) thick plates with 1/8 in. (3 mm) of GTAW and 3/16 in. (5 mm) of SMAW deposit. PQR C is welded with GTAW to join 3/16 in. (5 mm) thick plates with 3/16 in. (5 mm) of GTAW deposit.

Question (1): Do PQRs A and B qualify the combination WPS for a base metal thickness range of 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) to 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) when impact testing is not required?

Reply (1): No.

QW 200.2
[e.g., a single WPS may cover a thickness range from 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) through 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) if PQRs exist for both the 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) through 3/16 in. (5 mm) and 3/16 in. (5 mm) through 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) thickness ranges].

What is the difference between QW 200.2 and Question 1 ?

Cheers,
DD

 

[metengr]

The more I think about this, since these are full penetration groove welds, the base metal and weld metal are limited by the test coupon thickness, as discussed in QW-202, which supersedes table QW-451 based on Note 1. With that said, the key is PQR A was based on a 5mm to 32mm base metal thickness range with 5mm to 32mm of weld deposit using only the SMAW process with no GTAW at lesser thickness. If this would have been a GTAW and SMAW combined process for PQR A, we could have used PQR B for the lower BM thickness range down to 1.5mm using GTAW.

 

[DekDee]

I agree with you metengr.
Maybe this clarifies

Interpretation: 1-46-O6
Subject: Section IX, QW-200.2(f) and QW-200.4
Date Issued: September 19, 1985
File: BC85-328
Question: Does the combination of 2 PQRs, each of different processes, support a WPS
combining the two processes in a single joint, with all essential and supplementary essential variables unchanged?
Reply: No.

So, as you stated if PQR A was GTAW/SMAW and PQR B was GTAW/SMAW then 1.5 to 50 mm would be applicable.
QW 200.4 (b) allows the combination of 2 x PQRs with different processes but this is governed by the minimum thicknesses I noted above.
Cheers,
DD

 

[david339933]

This has turned into a bit of a mess.....

Simple answer to the original post questions is: Yes.

Interpretation IX-10-34 reply is "No" because it does not satisfy QW-200.4(b).

 

[sushildwivedi16]

Thanks a lot everyone for this great discussion. It really solved my problem.

Have a nice day.
SD

 

[DekDee]

David,
You are incorrect, the original post is a "No".
You are also incorrect here - Interpretation IX-10-34 reply is "No" because it does not satisfy QW-200.4(b).

I apologised as I was initially confused by the reference to QW 200.4 (b) so I sent an e-mail to someone who knows more about ASME IX than anyone ( Walt Sperko, current Chairman of the ASME IX committee).

This is what I copied & pasted from above.

Interpretation Number : IX-10-34
Question(s) and Reply(ies): Background: PQR A is welded with SMAW to join 5/8 in. (16 mm) thick plates with 5/8 in. (16 mm) of SMAW deposit. PQR B is welded with GTAW and SAMW to join 5/16 in. (8 mm) thick plates with 1/8 in. (3 mm) of GTAW and 3/16 in. (5 mm) of SMAW deposit. PQR C is welded with GTAW to join 3/16 in. (5 mm) thick plates with 3/16 in. (5 mm) of GTAW deposit.

Question (1): Do PQRs A and B qualify the combination WPS for a base metal thickness range of 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) to 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) when impact testing is not required?

Reply (1): No.

QW 200.2
[e.g., a single WPS may cover a thickness range from 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) through 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) if PQRs exist for both the 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) through 3/16 in. (5 mm) and 3/16 in. (5 mm) through 1 1/4 in. (32 mm) thickness ranges].

What is the difference between QW 200.2 and Question 1 ?

This is Walts response (which has nothing to do with QW 200.4 (b))

Shane,



GTAW is not qualified for more than 5/8 in base metal thickness. If the question had been only for SMAW, the answer would be yes.




Walt

This is exactly what metengr noted above.
Regards,
DD

 

[david339933]

Yes, but if PQR B was done on 1/2" thick coupon, it would satisfy QW-200.4(b) and be acceptable. Since it wasn't it is limited to 2 x 5/16" = 5/8"..which is what he stated.

Original post has nothing to do with QW-200.4(b). OP uses the same processes in two different PQRs. Much like the QW-200.2 example you listed above.

 

[david339933]

Also, Metengr's post is not saying what you think it is.