Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers" 7

[PM]

Now remember this is an ethics forum, . . .and no one will come knocking on your door regardless of how you answer.

How many of you, who consider yourselves "industry exempt engineers", have dispensed what you consider enginnering advice to this, or any other forum of people outside your own company?

For the moment, please let's dispense with the semantics of whether advice is "scientific" vs "metaphysics" vs "applied science" vs "engineering" in nature and scope. Another way to put the question is: "How many of you, who have offered engineering advice, are actually licensed to do so by your local state, province or territory?"

Some of you may already be a step or two ahead of the argument and might claim "freedom of speech" is a supreme doctrine which serves to quash state legislated prohibitions against practicing professional engineering without a license. I'm sure there will be plenty of argument why an individual's rights in this matter supercede the common good as expressed by the legislature, but let's have a show of hands how many of you believe that much of the engineering advice offered herein involves illeagl practice?

Regards,

PS: I'm already waiting for the quick wit who will point out that PE's, P.Eng's and CE's licensed in their own jurisdictions might be construed as practicing outside their area by participating within the broad reach of this electronic forum. :

 

[TheTick]

Guilty as charged. All I ask is that they let me use my own fur-lined handcuffs when they come haul me away.

I believe the nature of a forum such as this is not covered by the restrictions of licensure. This is a peer-to-peer discussion group. No one is selling their services to the general public.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[Binary]

So just what constitutes engineering? Am I practicing engineering if I give guidance on using engineering software? How 'bout if I suggest possible avenues to explore in solving a problem?

Actually, what I'm really curious about is where the "design & prototype" shops fit in. There are a lot of folks out there doing design & prototype work without calling it "engineering." You've also got contract people doing drawings for "engineering" firms but as independent contractors. Are those groups of people practicing "engineering"?

ps - Mr. Tick, sometimes getting someone to feel is harder (and sometimes more important) than getting them to think, particularly for us techno/science guys (in the gender-neutral sense).

 

[GregLocock]

"How many of you, who consider yourselves "industry exempt engineers", have dispensed what you consider enginnering advice to this, or any other forum of people outside your own company?"

Me. I work in an industry that relies on industry exemption.

I do not have the equivalent of a PE.

I don't just dispense advice, I have designed safety related systems for people, in my own time.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[PSE]

Look at my postings within these forums and judge for yourself. Outside of my workplace, I do not dispense engineering advice or perform engineering work for others.

I'll even provide an opinion now. I feel that the licensure process in the US needs to be updated. There are too many technological fields out there that individuals have put a lot of time and effort in to learn only to find out that there is not a place for them within the realm of Licensed Professional Engineer. For other than the "Bread and Butter" fields of engineering, I do not think that the NSPE has been able to keep pace.

 

[patdaly]

I am with the Tick and Greg.
For what it is worth Binary, I guess thats what I will be forced to do eventually, call myself a "design and prototype" person.........

 

[MRM]

What if a non-engineer, say homeowner, comes in on a one-time basis to ask a question about a problem they are having. If a registered engineer (PE) responds and gives poor advice resulting in damage to the homeowner, can a court track you, the PE advice-giver, down and bring you to trial? What if an unregistered engineer gives advice to the homeowner? Could they be tracked down and punished for dispensing professional advice without a license?

 

[electricpete]

I think the answer to your question is obvious... everyone here gives engineering advice.

The question which I believe should be asked is whether the advice offered on a forum such as this can in any way be considered to fall under regulation as the "practice of engineering".

Without a lot of knowledge of PE law, my gut-reaction first take common sense conclusion is that it is not. No-one purports to sign off or certify any design on this forum to my knowledge.

But yet surely the plaintiff's lawyers would have room to question it if some design or action which was influenced by eng-tips falls flat on it's face and causes damage or injury. One thing I note is that some members sign every post with PE. I would not do that myself. In my opinion it makes the common sense conclusion more of a grey area.

 

[PM]

If I understand the last two arguments, it's okay to practice engineering without a license as long as you don't get caught.

 

[electricpete]

My argument is whether giving informal advice at eng-tips constitutes the "practice of engineering".

 

[PM]

electricpete Excellent question.

I suppose the answer is to turn to the local legislation for a definition of "engineering" and the "practice of engineering". I'll tell you the one in the statutes governing my practice seem to be as long as your arm and cover just about every kind of endeavor.

Maybe a simpler approach would be to consider if your services (including advice) to persons outside your employer's company, if adopted, has the slightest possibility of resulting in harm or damages to members of the Public (including the person who adopted your advice). Given the technology, it's easy to anonymously steal huge amounts of intellectual property such as music and movies, etc., but it still ain't right. Likewise, it's possible to practice engineering covertly and anonymously in these fora, . . .isn't it equally wrong?
Regards,

 

[StressGuy]

You know, the business of industry exemption is really irrelevant to this discussion. I am licensed as a P.E. only in my home state of Texas. Yet, obviously, I communicate on this forum with people across the country and around the world. I am not licensed to practice engineering in those other areas. So, whether you are industry exempt or not doesn't mean much in the grand scheme here.

I don't consider helping my fellow engineers (and getting help as well) to be practicing engineering. If I point out a procedure on how to make a calculation, or point someone to a book or code that is relevant to a problem they are working on, I wouldn't call that engineering. Ultimately, the one asking should be the one to go and determine the answer for themselves.

I do think that it is prudent for everyone on the board, when they make a response to a question, to take a look at the nature of the question. There have been times where I've responded to someone by basically telling them that they don't appear to be qualified to try and do the work that they are doing and should contact and outside engineering firm to solve the problem. It's a judgement call on when to make that kind of response, but, I've found it's getting easier. Basically, I ask myself - does this sound like someone who does the work that I do, and is maybe looking at a new application or some special variation, or, does it sound like some poor guy stuck in the back of a refinery who knows nothing about what I do but has been put on by his boss to do this job?


Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

 

[electricpete]

"Given the technology, it's easy to anonymously steal huge amounts of intellectual property such as music and movies, etc., but it still ain't right. Likewise, it's possible to practice engineering covertly and anonymously in these fora, . . .isn't it equally wrong?"

Stealing music and providing engineering-related advice have nothing in common that I see other than that they use technology.

Other than objections which might arise from an overreaching interpretation of an overreaching law regarding practice of engineering, what is wrong with what we do on this site?

 

[brad]

PM,
I consider the "practice of engineering" to be much more than a mere exchange of ideas.

We are professionals discussing ideas, and teaching and learning from each other. Let me work with this analogy.

As bright as each of us might consider ourselves, I think we can all agree that we are not capable in one thread of summarizing all of the concepts encompassed in even one engineering class.

By your logic, the mere discussion of these ideas seems to constitute the "practice of engineering". Extending this logic, it is a grand crime indeed for anybody to dare teach concepts as important as a course in Solid Mechanics without being a professional engineer. Yet there are plenty of professors and TA's (I would expect a majority) who do not hold PE's. To my knowledge, these professors do not qualify under "industry exemption"; rather their work (educating) is construed as something fundamentally different than what PE's do on a regular basis. It is also essentially what we do on this site. I have yet to use my stamp to signoff on anybody's approach, and I have certainly never received money for my opinions and suggestions.

A different analogy--if I have a discussion with my colleagues about something, and they go off and follow up on their project based on this discussion, I have still not "signed off" on anything. I am not liable for their actions, as I have not reviewed what they have produced. How is that different than posting on this site?

If I state to somebody on this site that some approach is unequivocally done to code, and "signoff" on their approach, that MIGHT constitute "practice of engineering". But I don't recall ever seeing something to that extent.

Brad

 

[patdaly]

As a non PE, I steadfastly refuse to do anything for anyone, paid or not, so long as it involves a structure. What I WILL do is point out deficiencies I see in a Lay persons design or calculations, and ask that they consult a registered PE.

 

[BobPE]

bradh:

I think you answered the question very well....There are a lot of posts in this site that clearly are uniformed and I think we come down hard on them for dispensing advice....I have answered a lot of questions, but not dispensed any advice on this site...there are those that do dispense advice and I do not think that is right...and the site disclaimer covers that...and we correct it as we find it....

BTW, educators are exempt under most, if not all, state PE laws....I was tought all my engineering classes by PH.D, PE's...Thats kinda odd for me to hear not every engineering instructor is a PE....not that that is bad, its just new to me...

I will give you a good example of not providing engineering advice...there was a structural question posted in a forum that alluded to complete building failure...anyone responding to the post would have been rendering advice based on the question.....this post was deleted because that is not what we do here....

We shouldnt render advice....that goes for exempt and non exempt engineers...answering questions, guidance...offering examples...finding references....that is what we do...

and we use common sense to do it,,,at least we should.....

BobPE

 

[rockchip]

MRM Brings up a good point, to wit, is an unlicensed person liable for dispensing engineering advise. In my state the Board of Professional Engineering Examiners has weighed in on this topic. They are clear that they only have jurisdiction over their licencees. In other words, the "engineering police" can only arrest the citizens populating their world. However, the state code is very clear that engaging in the practice of engineering without a license is subject to criminal prosecution, and the board would likely turn over actionable events to the state attorney general.

This still does not answer the question of what constitutes the practice of engineering. That is discipline specific. In my opinion, protecting the public safety is the prime directive, and we engineers do owe a standard of care with regard to "public" statements made, whether in this forum or to a television news crew.

 

[BobPE]

rockchip

the defination you are searching for is defined by each state in the US...each one is slightly different...someone can face charges in any state where they dispense engineering advice no matter which state they reside...some states the boards do proscute, some, others do for them....

I look at this site as FUBU...For us by us....it is not public since the rules state only engineering professionals can join....There are some very tough topics to discuss in here and I think expressing yourself in any way is fine..as long as you communicate....

I would think a court could get our records from this site and prosecute us...I dont think a lot of us realize this....But I also think its the price we pay in order to advance a stagnent and disconnected profession...



BobPE

 

[Binary]

Well following the reasoning of RDK and dannym then none of us Industry Exempt types are allowed here since we're not professionals...

 

[JOM]

Just a simplistic take on this business of giving engineering advice through these forums.

We all know email is an imperfect means of communication. How easy it is to be misconstrued. How can you be sure the person seeking advice has accurately and fully described their problem and circumstances? It's almost a given that something important has been omitted.

You wouldn't give specific advice over the phone on a complex, potentially hazardous problem - you'd say "I'll come round and take a look."



Cheers,
John.