Rate for contract work 1

[rwsasser1]

I am a relatively new mechanical engineer with a little more then one year experience. Recently I have had a friend need me to do some detailed fabrication drawings of certain metal displays and such that his company designs. Another friend recently asked me to do the same thing with a hydraulic horse trailer he built, but he would also like me to run some calculations to check the structural integrety of the trailer and hydraulic specs and all. How much should I be charging for these services, and is this legal if I do not have a PE. I am not advertising myself as an engineer, just doing some design and documentation work for friends.

 

[BobPE]

rwsasser:

I think this discussion was brought up in some of the forums before it bits a pieces. Rates are a tough thing to determine. Average salaries are all over the board but somewhere between 50 to 75 thousand per year would probably be a representtive salary. Overhead is another thing you need to consider as are taxes.

Providing engineering services without a PE and without insurance is an all together different story. To provide engineering services you will need a PE all states except for California which has guidelines for practice by non engineers directly to industry.

It is a good question to ask though. Even though you may be helping friends, the result of your engineering could be passed on to others if problems arise for some reason. And that is the last place you want to be is trying to defend yourself without a PE and insurance.

BobPE

 

[rwsasser1]

I would love to do contract work eventually full time, but right now I need more experience and my PE. Are there any independent contract engineers out there that could give me some helpful advice or info. How do you go about building up steady clientel? I imagine the only overhead would be insurance, software, and office(could use resident). Am I forgetting anything?

 

[tygerdawg]

All of those "How to be a Consultant" books basically go through the exercise:

rate = (total of all expenses including business profit) / (total of anticipated hours worked for a fee per year)

or some variation thereof. This kind of analysis can get your hourly rate to go $75-$150 per hour or more because your arent' actually billing 40 hours per week to shoes on the baby.

For designers in the Southeast I've seen contract rates go anywhere from $17 to $45, design engineers go $35 to $72 or more. But that means weeks and weeks of 40+ hour contract weeks, not consultant hours.

When I was doing freelancing, I had a sliding scale so that I could take any type of work that was thrown at me. I charged lower rates for desginer-level detailing (because that was what the market would allow) but when actual engineering calculations were involved, then I charged them enough to make their teeth bleed. But there were only a few of those hours.

BobPE makes a good point about the liability issue. If the work you do is significant to the welfare and health of the general public, then a P.E. is the order of the day. In strict legal terms, some if not most states dictate that you have a P.E. before you can call yourself an engineer and practice as one. Reality is...um... a little different.

However, I have seen this many many many times: hacks, engineer-wannabes, and bona fide degreed engineers crank out freelance machine design projects for manufacturing companies without a second thought. It seems to be a "catch me if you can" situation and you only get caught if it blows up and injures somebody. Things are usually so dynamic that what you did three weeks ago is completely forgotten. But once I was asked to put my P.E. stamp on a structural drawing that some goober did....absolutely not. So choose wisely.

TygerDawg

 

[haggis]

I seem to recall a thread a while ago that begged several questions like whether or not you should be "engineering" or even "designing" anything if you are not a registered and licensed PE. That's doing it privately but you could be doing it within a company as industry exempt and still make pretty good designer rates.

Yes, in some places it is not allowed to use the words "engineer" or "engineering" if you are not licensed even if you are not misleading anyone into believing that you are.

The liability is probably the scariest part. Not to make light of the situation, but what if something happened to the trailer and killed your friend's thouroughbread or the metal displays collapsed and crushed someones foot.

Lot to think about and I see this as becoming a very long thread.

Haggis

 

[rhodie]

I'd shy away from giving anything more than casual advice.
No need to impart oneself to liability lawsuits.

 

[TheTick]

A good formula for rate:

rate = (how much they are willing to spend)/(how long they think it should take)

 

[GregLocock]

Very funny Mr Tick.

I think the OP has got two separate cases. One is a detailing job on some display stands. I think you are basically recording a design that exists. That is probably acceptable.

The other one I would not touch (in your shoes) with a barge pole. Supposing the tailgate falls open and squashes someone? It could get very messy.

Just as an example,

1) what factor of safety were you thinking of using for the latter job?

2) How would you determine the fatigue life of the welds?

3) How would you control what metal is used for the frame and brackets?



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[ScottyUK]

TheTick,

Your calculation gives a divide-by-zero error when I tried it. But then I get the argument that zero cost divided by zero time is unity. What am I doing wrong??




----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[TheTick]

It means that the hourly rate is infinity! [∞]

Would you like a minute of my time?

 

[TrevorP]

Sorry to be dull, but zero divided by zero is undefined mathematically. Which I think is the correct answer.

(Note: 0x1=0; 0x2=0; 0x3=0 etc., so 0/0=1 or 2 or 3 etc.)

 

[TheTick]

Maybe in real math, but this is sales math!

 

[TrevorP]

A couple of points to note:
1) For friends, if I were to ask for any recompense at all for this work, I would expect to do it for a fixed fee rather than an hourly rate. They would know exactly where they stood then.

2) A question to the rest of the forum as I am not familiar with the PE system in the US, and it seems to be a real minefield. Is it possible to write a disclaimer on the work, saying words to the effect that it appears to be OK, but that no responsibility can be borne for the failure of the equipment?
I would suspect that the person involved is looking for some reassurance that his horse box isn't going to fall over and kill someone, rather than looking for someone to take liability if it does. If this is possible, then pointing this out before any work is undertaken (or money has changed hands) will help to prevent misunderstanding and potential conflict later on.

 

[IRstuff]

Fixed fee works only if you know exactly what you are supposed to be doing and there is a well-defined spec that cannot be changed with affecting the cost.

Most customers are not that precise in their specifications nor do they necessarily know what they really want.

TTFN

 

[BobPE]

TrevorP:

The PE is not that bad really. The system works very well when you follow the rules. If you fall outside the rules, it can be quite harsh to the individual. I don't think a disclaimer would work to circumvent the PE. Someone would still have to do engineering to verify the design and that would be where the problem would arise. If it was said that the work appeared OK, then that individual would be responsible for the work and if it later failed, then there would be a path of responsibility to that individual. If the individual were practicing without a license, then they would liable and breaking the law at the same time. That is something an engineers career would most certainly not survive.

The PE system is really quite elequent and has performed well over the years. It does have some loopholes like discussed in other posts, but for the most part, the engineering profession is well served because of it.

BobPE

 

[zdas04]

TrevorP,
To expand on BobPE's post. If something is designed and built "just among us friends" and then it is sold to a tort lawyer with piles and an impacted wisdom tooth, then if the thing ever fails (even after the expected life while being used in an inappropriate manner) the original designer would find himself in a courtroom so fast his head would spin. Then his " .. I accept no responsibility for failure ... " statement goes in front of a jury as " ... I really don't believe this is safe, but my pals can use it anyway because I don't like them very much ...".

Disclaimers are never useful in front of a US jury. If you can't say with certainty what the limits of safe performance are, then you better not put your name (or your PE) on it.

David

 

[Ron]

TrevorP...as an individual, providing engineering services of any type, for anyone other than yourself, you need a P.E. If you work for a firm or an industrial entity, there are some exceptions and exemptions, but if you do it on your own, you need to be licensed.

The rate is irrelevant. Whatever the market will bear (that's what someone is willing to pay) is the rate. If you consider overhead, profit, insurance, and other general expenses, the rate should be at least 3 times the hourly amount you want to make.

 

[TrevorP]

OK, thanks to all of you for the response. I fully admit to not knowing very much about the PE system, so thanks for putting me straight! In any case, thinking further about this, I'm not sure whether this is something that could be towed on the road or not. If so, that would open a whole new can of worms, in regard to reaction to potholes, speed limitations, a crash situation etc. Even if not, it seems the overwhelming consensus of opinion is to steer well clear.

What about the drawings, though? If the drawings of the metal displays are used as a template to make other metal displays, and one of these were to fail, causing an injury, could there be any liability? "Well, we built them to a mechanical engineer's drawings...". The same argument could apply to any trailer drawings.

 

[sms]

In the US, we live in an environment where anything you do you can and will get sued for. That is why consultants carry liability insurance. If you are going to do this, get insurance, if your not going to get insurance, don't do it.

 

[hydrae]

TrevorP
The second step (the first is the degree) in becoming a PE was the Engineerin in Training (EIT) and is now known as fundamentals of engineering (FE). Have you taken it yet? If not take it as soon as possilble. Having the freshest memory your schooling increases your chances of passing. Also part of the FE and the PE, at least in my state, was an ethics test, which is based upon the state laws and rules for what an FE's, surveyors, and PE's can and can not do.

Hydrae