In our state, NM, engineers can lose their license if convicted of a felony. Do you believe that the type of crime should be considered? Or just being a "felon" is enough to lose your license. Our situation involves a soon to be former partner who has plead guilty to tax evasion. His hearing in front of the board is scheduled for November 1, 2007. If he loses his license, can it ever be reinstated?
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Reasons for Losing your PE 12
- Thread starter tuggertoo
- Start date
as a foreigner, i don't understand reasoning behind giving life sentence to an engineer who has commited himself to tax evasion activity...
if the law distinguishes diffrent grade of crimes, why engineer's ethics code should be diffrent....
for an engineer, "life sentence" is deserved by breaking engineers codes and principles, other kind of crimes should be left to civil law system.
ohterwise what is the point of law at all? if someone has no any chance to go back to the right track no matter what kind of mistake he had made, why not to send him to gas chamber immediately. it would be more human...
if the law distinguishes diffrent grade of crimes, why engineer's ethics code should be diffrent....
for an engineer, "life sentence" is deserved by breaking engineers codes and principles, other kind of crimes should be left to civil law system.
ohterwise what is the point of law at all? if someone has no any chance to go back to the right track no matter what kind of mistake he had made, why not to send him to gas chamber immediately. it would be more human...
Drazen
Being an engineer is not a right it's a privilege. The people acting through the goverment grant you that provilege. If you commit a felony you have betrayed that trus and may loose the privilige. You still have the right to be a street sweeper, a clerk at Wal-Mart etc.
Being an engineer is not a right it's a privilege. The people acting through the goverment grant you that provilege. If you commit a felony you have betrayed that trus and may loose the privilige. You still have the right to be a street sweeper, a clerk at Wal-Mart etc.
ok, if that would be the firm reasoning behind such situation, than it should be properly and consinstently applied.
BJC, have you ever violated city limits? Dou you smoke? Have you ever dropped paper in a park, by mistake, and didn't pick it up?
if you did, were you brave enough to report yourself to disciplinary body, to decide about your enegineering destiny?
talking about engineering as a privilege is frightening for me - that means being engineer is not some kind of rank earned by knowledge, experience, hard work, but is some kind of divine blessing granted by other "blessed" ones.
all kind of discrimination comes in play that way...
BJC, have you ever violated city limits? Dou you smoke? Have you ever dropped paper in a park, by mistake, and didn't pick it up?
if you did, were you brave enough to report yourself to disciplinary body, to decide about your enegineering destiny?
talking about engineering as a privilege is frightening for me - that means being engineer is not some kind of rank earned by knowledge, experience, hard work, but is some kind of divine blessing granted by other "blessed" ones.
all kind of discrimination comes in play that way...
Drazen, what?
BJC was applying it's 'a privilege' in the same way it's applied to driving a car.
For certain serious and/or repeated driving infractions you lose your license to drive in most countries.
Being a Professional Engineer in the US essentially means being licensed to practice Engineering. For certain sectors, especially related to civil/construction etc. and when offering your services directly to the public, you have to be licensed.
Part of being licensed isn’t just knowledge, experience, hard work, but also ethical concerns. Essentially being trusted to do the right thing.
If you break a law serious enough that it counts as a felony does that not have implications on ethics? Can someone who would cheat and lie significantly on their taxes be trusted not to do the same on code compliance where safety is a concern?
Now it may be that a life time ban seems a bit excessive, perhaps if you go for a certain amount of time without any more felonies you should be allowed to re apply for PE.
However, losing you license when you get a felony seems pretty reasonable.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
BJC was applying it's 'a privilege' in the same way it's applied to driving a car.
For certain serious and/or repeated driving infractions you lose your license to drive in most countries.
Being a Professional Engineer in the US essentially means being licensed to practice Engineering. For certain sectors, especially related to civil/construction etc. and when offering your services directly to the public, you have to be licensed.
Part of being licensed isn’t just knowledge, experience, hard work, but also ethical concerns. Essentially being trusted to do the right thing.
If you break a law serious enough that it counts as a felony does that not have implications on ethics? Can someone who would cheat and lie significantly on their taxes be trusted not to do the same on code compliance where safety is a concern?
Now it may be that a life time ban seems a bit excessive, perhaps if you go for a certain amount of time without any more felonies you should be allowed to re apply for PE.
However, losing you license when you get a felony seems pretty reasonable.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
DonPhillips
Structural
Traffic offenses and littering are misdemeanor offenses. Even violations of the building codes normally does not rise to the level of a felony. Since engineers must maintain the public trust, I have no real problem with felons losing their engineer's licenses. Similarly, I would not expect my doctor, accountant, or attorney to be convicted felons.
Don Phillips
Don Phillips
VoyageofDiscovery
Structural
What happened to my latest replies? Isn't this a discussion board?
VOD
VOD
Well I may get red flagged or deleted but arguably the posts on constitutionality of income tax in the USA were a tad off topic.
Tuggertoo, what happened at the board hearing.
It would be interesting to hear a real case.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
Tuggertoo, what happened at the board hearing.
It would be interesting to hear a real case.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
KENAT
There's a lot of people in Levenworth and other prisons that think the 13 th ammendment is illeagle. When they get out they don't to need to be engineers. Most can learn a trade while they in big house. We can discuss their eligilbility when they get out and want to get their license back. For now your dead on.
There's a lot of people in Levenworth and other prisons that think the 13 th ammendment is illeagle. When they get out they don't to need to be engineers. Most can learn a trade while they in big house. We can discuss their eligilbility when they get out and want to get their license back. For now your dead on.
Kenat-
Didn't your above post say that if you commit serious DRIVING infractions you can lose your license for good?
You will not lose your driving "privilege for committing murder, and certainly not for tax evastion.
I think that argument is not valid. By that very logic, you could only lose your engineering "privilege" if you commit a serious engineering infraction, not murder, and certainly not tax evasion.
That being said, I am not sure I am of the philosiphy that pacticing engineering is a privilege. It may very well be that way because teh powers that be (government) says it is. I think there should be a governing body to oversee ENGINERING ethics vilations and keep the government out of this. After all, there is nothing to keep you from running for governor if you commit tax evasion.
Didn't your above post say that if you commit serious DRIVING infractions you can lose your license for good?
You will not lose your driving "privilege for committing murder, and certainly not for tax evastion.
I think that argument is not valid. By that very logic, you could only lose your engineering "privilege" if you commit a serious engineering infraction, not murder, and certainly not tax evasion.
That being said, I am not sure I am of the philosiphy that pacticing engineering is a privilege. It may very well be that way because teh powers that be (government) says it is. I think there should be a governing body to oversee ENGINERING ethics vilations and keep the government out of this. After all, there is nothing to keep you from running for governor if you commit tax evasion.
Very interesting discussion for a foreigner like me. It shows very clear different mentality in different countries.
IMHO one should be banned to practice of his profession only if he violates professional rules and codes. For all other cases there is a court.
I am curious what happens if one kills somebody in traffic accident. Will this be considered as a felony? Should one lose his PE and consequently a right to work as engineer just for a one second's mistake, after completing the terms given by the court ?
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
IMHO one should be banned to practice of his profession only if he violates professional rules and codes. For all other cases there is a court.
I am curious what happens if one kills somebody in traffic accident. Will this be considered as a felony? Should one lose his PE and consequently a right to work as engineer just for a one second's mistake, after completing the terms given by the court ?
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
StructuralEIt
Google up "Moral turpitude".
Heres on definition:
Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the USA, which refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty, or good morals".
It odesn't just apply to engineers, Doctors, Lawyers, dental hygenist police officers and many others that server the publice can loose their jobs for moral turpitude.
That definiton says it's a concept in the USA. American law is derived in English Common law so the concept is probably found in most of the "colonies".
Google up "Moral turpitude".
Heres on definition:
Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the USA, which refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty, or good morals".
It odesn't just apply to engineers, Doctors, Lawyers, dental hygenist police officers and many others that server the publice can loose their jobs for moral turpitude.
That definiton says it's a concept in the USA. American law is derived in English Common law so the concept is probably found in most of the "colonies".
Thank you, BJC.
How traffic accidents are considered according to American law? If killing somebody in traffic accident is a felony ?
From the definition you posted it shouldn't be.
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
How traffic accidents are considered according to American law? If killing somebody in traffic accident is a felony ?
From the definition you posted it shouldn't be.
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
So you should be able to lose your job (or license) for something that isn't even a crime, but is just morally bad?
That is absolutely absurd. Who draws the line as to what is truly morally wrong or what is wrong, but not so much so that you should lose your job (or license) for? That is absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion.
Taken to its extreme, consider this scenario. You are at the bank drive-thru and you have a $1000 check. You deposit $900 and take $100 in cash. The teller inadvertantly gives you $120. You realize this as you are walking around the grocery store and think how great it is that you got an extra $20.
2weeks later you get a letter in the mail asking if you received an extra $20 and you then admit to it. Thast is certainly morally wrong. After all, you didn't offer it up, you had to e tracked down and asked about it. Should you lose your job (or license) over that?
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the population has an extra-marital affair. Should they all lose their jobs for it? It has nothing to do with the work or responsibility they are charged with.... WHY SHOULD IT MATTER?
That is absolutely absurd. Who draws the line as to what is truly morally wrong or what is wrong, but not so much so that you should lose your job (or license) for? That is absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion.
Taken to its extreme, consider this scenario. You are at the bank drive-thru and you have a $1000 check. You deposit $900 and take $100 in cash. The teller inadvertantly gives you $120. You realize this as you are walking around the grocery store and think how great it is that you got an extra $20.
2weeks later you get a letter in the mail asking if you received an extra $20 and you then admit to it. Thast is certainly morally wrong. After all, you didn't offer it up, you had to e tracked down and asked about it. Should you lose your job (or license) over that?
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the population has an extra-marital affair. Should they all lose their jobs for it? It has nothing to do with the work or responsibility they are charged with.... WHY SHOULD IT MATTER?
StructuralEIT, very good point !
It didn't came to me that for one night in a motel I could loose the right to stamp my projects :~/
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
It didn't came to me that for one night in a motel I could loose the right to stamp my projects :~/
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
Structural EIT
No it didn’t, it said:
“For certain serious and/or repeated driving infractions you lose your license to drive in most countries.”
Nothing about ‘for good’.
Also, I was trying to explain BJCs point to Drazen with that line, not making a point of my own.
I didn’t say anything about losing your driving license for felony offenses.
Given that the board apparently decides if you lose your license on a case by case basis, not just that everyone who gets felony automatically loses license, I really don’t see a problem with how it’s set up.
What are the rules for Doctors, Lawyers and other professions, what happens if they are convicted of felonies? I have some vague idea but don’t know the details.
As to moral turpitude, I don’t really recall it as such in the UK. There are ethics issues etc. but I don’t’ recall an equivalent phrase or legal term, could be wrong though.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
No it didn’t, it said:
“For certain serious and/or repeated driving infractions you lose your license to drive in most countries.”
Nothing about ‘for good’.
Also, I was trying to explain BJCs point to Drazen with that line, not making a point of my own.
I didn’t say anything about losing your driving license for felony offenses.
Given that the board apparently decides if you lose your license on a case by case basis, not just that everyone who gets felony automatically loses license, I really don’t see a problem with how it’s set up.
What are the rules for Doctors, Lawyers and other professions, what happens if they are convicted of felonies? I have some vague idea but don’t know the details.
As to moral turpitude, I don’t really recall it as such in the UK. There are ethics issues etc. but I don’t’ recall an equivalent phrase or legal term, could be wrong though.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
StructuralEIT made series of points based on the same reasoning so I would bother readers repeating it, just to try to make some sort of summarizations:
- Questions of general ethics are too wide and too generic, therefore shouldn't be related to very specific ways to penalize someone. Even general law very rarely deals with general ethics, but with specific issues
- What should be the point of general law system if engineer's chamber disciplinary body deals with all kinds of non-engineering issues. Than, licensed engineers shouldn't be subject to any investigation conducted by anybody but chamber's bodis (absourd, of course; and even in that hypothetical situation there had to be some penalty other than life sentence).
- Questions of general ethics are too wide and too generic, therefore shouldn't be related to very specific ways to penalize someone. Even general law very rarely deals with general ethics, but with specific issues
- What should be the point of general law system if engineer's chamber disciplinary body deals with all kinds of non-engineering issues. Than, licensed engineers shouldn't be subject to any investigation conducted by anybody but chamber's bodis (absourd, of course; and even in that hypothetical situation there had to be some penalty other than life sentence).
StructuralEIT
Taken to the extream anything is bad. Morality is not black and white but shades of gray. Engineering boards are not quick to take a license for Moral Turpitude. I can only remember reading of it 2 or 3 times. The last tiem the engineer had been convicted of cooking meth. A court of law convicted him of that so the board didn't really have to make a decision. He has a documented lack of moral turpitude.
Drazen
The moral turpitude section allows them to act without investingiting things the regular court takes care of.
If you get drunk, drive home from the pub and kill some kid crossing the street you'll may get charged and convicted of manslaughter. You may do jail time.
Your a reflection on all engineers and I for one don't want you in the profession. The respect we get from the public depends on how the public views us. Are the boards there to protect us or the public?
You make a decision: drive home or call the cab. When you decided to drive that was a mistake. You pay, the price may include finding a new job. In many places having a felony record may mean you can't even get a job driving the cab.
Taken to the extream anything is bad. Morality is not black and white but shades of gray. Engineering boards are not quick to take a license for Moral Turpitude. I can only remember reading of it 2 or 3 times. The last tiem the engineer had been convicted of cooking meth. A court of law convicted him of that so the board didn't really have to make a decision. He has a documented lack of moral turpitude.
Drazen
The moral turpitude section allows them to act without investingiting things the regular court takes care of.
If you get drunk, drive home from the pub and kill some kid crossing the street you'll may get charged and convicted of manslaughter. You may do jail time.
Your a reflection on all engineers and I for one don't want you in the profession. The respect we get from the public depends on how the public views us. Are the boards there to protect us or the public?
You make a decision: drive home or call the cab. When you decided to drive that was a mistake. You pay, the price may include finding a new job. In many places having a felony record may mean you can't even get a job driving the cab.
If not going to extreme, there is a similar point in our "Law for Chambers for Architects and Engineers in Investment Design" - membership there is mandatory and equivalent of PE status. Engineer cannot obtain full rights if convicted for crimes. But according to general law here, after completion of his term, convicted is considered as "not convicted" and has again full legal rights. Hence, he can apply again for membership and there is no legal reasons to be refused.
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
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