Recruiting from Previous Employer 10

[dozer]

When I resigned from my previous position the big boss asked me not to recruit any of their employees. This request came after several days of negotiations to try to get me to stay and I was pretty much tired of arguing so I mumbled "Yeah, sure."

Now I'm kicking myself for not getting into it with him. Would he apprecitate it if he had an employee that wouldn't turn him on to a potential good engineer or designer because of loyalty to a previous company? I think not.

So what are people's opinions? Was it right for him to ask that of me? Is it right to raid previous employers?

Let me start with my two cents. The more I think about it, the more I think it's absolute BS that he even asked. Mainly for the reason I already gave.

As for the second question, it depends. If you're just being malicious and trying to wreck a company by stealing people, then, of course, I would say that's wrong. But if you have a legitimate need for someone, why risk the whole resume review, interview gambit and not just ask someone that you already know if they're interested. Last time I checked that was called free market econonomy.

 

[CarolinaPE]

That is interesting that he asked you not to recruit people. Sounds as if he realizes a problem with employee retention, if it was so great working there he would not worry. That being said I would not recruit anyone from the previous employer in your situation because: #1 - you gave him your word you wouldn't. #2 - it can be a "bridge burner" if it gets back to him that you helped poach one of his staff. One day down the road you may need him as a reference, poaching his staff only hurts you (for the most part).

 

[jsummerfield]

How can I find good employees?

A) Read hundreds of resume's, invite them to an interview
B) Contact employees at other firms that are recommended by their former employees
C) ...
D) All of the above.

What ethics?

John

 

[cadnutcase]

I have an exact same situation here. I left my former employer, because he didn't want to come near the $10,000 a year raise I was getting, plus a big promotion. I still do some contract work for him on nights and weekends. Hell I even went to the christmas party. So we still speak quite a bit.

On my way out the door, my old boss says I can't hire any of his employees. I shrugged and said sure, there was only one I&E designer that I would want to take anyways. I think nothing of it.

So I get to my new company and I have all the power to hire anybody I want/need to. After being here for a couple of months I realize that our I&E department is in shambles and this one guy at my last company could probably have the whole department fixed in a month. It would be a great oppurtunity for him with lots of hands on experience which he isn't getting now, plus about an $8,000 year pay raise. Plus at the old company this guy gets the shaft everyday now that I am gone.

So what do I do?
What I am thinking about doing is going visit my old boss and explain to him the situation. Say look it would be better experience and more money for him, I would at least like to make him an offer. He is a pretty understanding guy.

I still expect my old boss to throw me out of his office though. And probably lose the 5 year working relationship I have built up with him. I say screw him, this is Texas and it's a right to work state. I have the right to hire the best guys I can get my hands on.

cadnutcase.
Hope this all made sense I didn't reread it.

 

[dozer]

Cadnutcase, wow, that is a similar situation except I don't have the power to hire. All I could really do is suggest someone, but as several people have pointed out, I did say I wouldn't.

One question, if your boss is so understanding, why is he shafting your buddy on a daily basis?

I guess one thing we can all glean from this thread is not to take that stupid ass request lightly. What we both should have done when our exbosses said not to hire from them was say, "Excuse me? Do we have some contract I'm not aware of? What are you going to give me in return for this consideration?" etc. etc. Oh, well, live and learn.

 

[cadnutcase]

Dozer,

I don't think my old boss would be so understanding. Overall he is a good guy, but he has to protect his own interest as well. That is why I basically haven't done anything yet.

 

[buzzp]

Its a dog eat dog world. If he didn't want you recruiting then he should of kept you there or had you sign an agreement when he hired you. Obviously, the guy is not on some high moral horse of his own since you stated they do recruit from other employers. The statement was made to appease the employer to get them off his back.
Its just disturbing that some believe we need to be held on some pedestal of higher ethics or morality over and above our employer. Sure, there are cases where my beliefs would over ride my decision, but this is not one of them.

If the employer practiced what they preached, I would more likely be inclined to not recruit his people. In addition, if they were paying competitive wages and/or it was a great place to work, then companies stealing away their employees would not be of such a concern.

 

[RDK]

Whether or not someone else keeps their word has nothing to do with one’s own obligation to one to keep one’s word. (Yes I was a Boy Scout, why did you ask?)

There is no legal or contractual requirement to keep the promise. It would be in legal terms a gratuitous promise and would not be enforceable in court. The issue of a contract is writing is irrelevant. If there was a contract (remember offer, acceptance, intent, capacity and consideration?) then it is writing or verbal is not the issue. However this case there is is obviously no contract since there is no consideration or the exchange of items of value.

However the original poster gave his word. While that may or may not matter in some circles it does matter to me. (Actually I as also a Boy Scout leader for several years, again why do you ask?)

If you do not intend to keep your word then keep your mouth shut and refuse to agree to anything that you do not intend to follow. It is always better to not be in a position to have to rationalize breaking one’s word.

The discussion has revolved around the definition of recruiting. Is it recruiting to passively solicit people to leave the form or would only passive recruiting be OK? (Let them come to you rather that going after them.) To me that is all a matter of schematics designed to rationalize breaking the promise. A person’s word was given not to do something and they should not do that in any way shape or form without time limit.


However as was said, the original poster is the one that has to live with himself after taking whatever action he decides and the results of that action.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[buzzp]

I would have a hard timing keeping my word with any company that does not keep theirs or practice what they expect me NOT to practice. Business decisions are business decisions, right? Even if the 'businesses' word gets broken. "I know I told you, you would have a secure job and you have only been here for two weeks but its a business decision to let you go."
"Well I know I told you I would not steal your employees but its a business decision".

Business and personal are two different things, nowadays. In the golden years, they were one in the same but now all gloves are off (not my decision, in fact I would prefer if they were still one in the same).

The company has no qualms about recruiting others from competitors so why should you? This obviously exposes their high and mighty 'business ethics", LOL.

 

[cadnutcase]

IRStuff mentioned this earlier.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051223/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_google

I hope the link works.

RDK,
I agree with you, but there are a couple of points I would like to make.

I just hate to see a good employee, who bust his butt all day, alot of the time off the clock, be in a dead end position. I want to take this guy away from what I think is a bad situation for him and bring him into at least a better situation. He and I have talked several times off the record, and I get a good feeling he is ready to move on to.

It aggravtes me to see a guy sitting in the same chair for 6 years straight.

Most of my life I have tried to live by my word, but when you think about it, how many times I have you promised something to somebody not knowing all the facts, and then when you get all the information, you can't keep your word.

This happens to me all the time, sales guy comes in says we are about to close on one of our standard products, how much time do you need. I say, standard great, I could get the whole project done in 100 hours. Project closes and there are many changes from the standard and I requote him 400 hours and he blows his lid.

So now the question is to you RDK, on your exist when you boss tells you not to hire any of his people, do you say?

1) No problem and walk out the door. (Keep the bridge)
2) Sorry, I will need to be compensated to not hire your
people (Slightly damage the bridge)
3) Say screw you, I don't work here anymore.
(Blow up the bridge)


I know when I left my old company they would hire me back in a second if I wanted to go back to work for them. When I left I was 2 weeks away from having my first child. Needless to say if something happened at my new company, I had something to fall back on.

cadnutcase

 

[RDK]

As far as keeping my word, I cannot think of any situation in over 30 years work and 50 years life experience where I have deliberately not kept my word. The result is that when I tell people something they will believe me and trust me. That is very important to me personally and professionally.

Being wrong in an estimate is a different thing. If you estimated 100 hours for a standard task and you soon discovered that the task was not standard then you should have been telling the client as soon as you knew that the assumption that was the basis of the estimate was wrong and that there would be an adjustment. To wait until the work was 400 % over budget is significant error of omission. The client deserves to be told the status. What may have been a worthwhile project at 100 hours may not be worthwhile at 400 hours. That is the client’s decision to make and not yours.

If on exiting a former employer made the request that I not recruit any of his people, I would most likely state that once I am no longer employed by him he cannot control my actions. I might agree not to specifically target his firm for employees but should I have a position that would be best filled by one of his people I would want to be free to hire the best people. I’d go further to state that while I worked for him and took a salary from him I put his best interests first and could not in good conscience bind myself to an agreement that required me not to put the best interests of my new employer first.

If that burnt the bridge then that’s just the way it would be. As an employee you have a duty to put the best interests of your current employer first. By making the agreement you have made your new employers interests subordinate to those of the former employer.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[RDK]

I just read the link. This is a very different set of circumstances. It appears that the former Google employee violated the terms of a no compete agreement. He also was accused of violating a non disclosure agreement.

The only similarity was the former employee violated his word. It was a contractually binding agreement and not only did he break his word he also broke a contract and that is the basis of the lawsuit.

I have always maintained that the no recruit promise is a gratuitous promise and would not be binding at law. The issue is honour.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Ron]

Having been in this situation before, I think the integrity of our profession depends on how we treat each other as well as our clients. In most cases I have been party to a "Gentlemen's Agreement" that I would not pursue individuals after leaving. In each of those situations I made it clear that while I would not actively pursue individuals, I would also not turn them away if they inquired. The comment I made at the time was "I won't call them, but if they call me I'll talk to them". That seemed satisfactory to all concerned and has worked out. Fortunately, we're a tight community and it won't take long before someone will call you looking for greener pastures.

Further, if you told him you would not recruit, then don't do it. Eventually your colleagues will call and that will open the door.

This is pretty close to SlideRuleEra's approach.

 

[Maui]

To borrow a famous quotation from Shakespeare, "He who steals my good name, steals all that I have". Learn from your mistake of giving your word to someone who apparently was not worthy of requesting it in the first place.


Maui

 

[AndrewTX]

Hey dozer,

I was in a similar position back in 2001. When I resigned from my old company my manager and even the engineering VP spent a week trying to talk me out of resigning. Didn't work.

When I got to my new company and experienced a completely different attitude towards the employees I contaced several coworkers from my old company. A couple were interested and came over, a couple weren't interested and stayed there.

Of interest, my manager who spent a week trying to talk me out of resigning, quit his job and was working for the same company as I am now about 8 months after I left.

I would not worry about letting former coworkers know about your new company.

 

[JoeTank]

A star to RDK and Maui

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[HgTX]

Y'all live in a much nicer world than I do. I haven't seen that anyone's word is worth the air it's spoken with, and going through life as if it might be is pretty much painting a target on your forehead.

Someone's word being their bond in a business situation means you're skipping that silly little step of a written contract. If it's really important, get it in writing--or put it in writing, if you're the one making the promises. Anything else is fantasy.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[epoisses]

"Nice guys finish last" as they say, although I do admire RDK's point of view. If everybody had it the world would be a better place.

 

[RDK]

HgTX

If you cannot believe the word of those around you then you are apparently hanging around with the wrong crowd.

Also is you look at the thread on written contracts you will see that I will back up a verbal agreement with a written statement of our understanding. I previously stated that working for one of my oldest friends I had a written understanding of our agreement.

However the promise is not to recruit is not a binding contract. It is once again I state a gratuitous contract. Putting it is writing and having notarized seals all over it still will not change a gratuitous contract into one that any court will enforce.

Besides a written contract by itself has no real meaning. It is only an easy way to determine what the terms of the contact are.

Anyone who would lie about a verbal contract would also cheat on a written contract. If you do not have the money to take them to court or the value is not worth the bother then you are just as screwed by someone breaking a written contract as by someone breaking a verbal contract.

Like I said, its all about honour.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[buzzp]

I give you a star HGTX. Gone are the days of a handshake meaning something or what you said having meaning in the business world. Sure you might get somewhere with these types of gestures in your business relationships, maybe, but when it comes to the employee/employer relationship and you believe these actions actually have substance, then your bound for disappointment. When businesses start showing loyalty to their employees, as in the old days, then this relationship can start to recover, until then, it will just continue to deteriorate.
I guess there still are a few 'company men' still out there who are incredibly naive when it comes to the companies word. Some might get lucky and find the rare company who shows loyalty to their employees but this is certainly the exception.

 

[Maui]

It's not about loyalty. It's not about written contracts versus verbal contracts.

It's about personal integrity.


Maui