Removal of soil nails 2

[snsl123]

I am not a geoengineer, but I have some geoengineering questions and I hope you don't mind me posting it here. As part of a construction project next to our house (they are building a house), a shoring company began drilling grouted, threaded soil nails into the hillside between our two houses. In weeks prior, an excavation company had excavated all the earth in the side yard next door right up to our property line, which left a 20' drop to the property below where they are building the house (we are on a hillside). In order to prepare for a retaining wall, the shoring company began drilling these nails into our yard, but neither the builder nor the shoring company told us they were going to do this work and they did so without our permission (It is unbelievable--at least to us!) Since they began drilling the nails into the hillside right along our property line, and the nails are approximately 16 feet long, the nails breached our property line by about 15 feet (there is a foot of nail still sticking out of the earthen wall). We were able to stop them just as they were finishing the installation of the sixth nail, but apparently dozens more were planned to be drilled into our yard to hold up the wall. Of course, all work ceased, and has been stopped for one week now. The builder apparently had other methods to shore up this earthen wall, but utilizing our yard was the cheapest route. We are now in need of a geotech expert (something I am working on) to help us figure out what to do with these metal rods in our yard. Do they stay or do they go? We want them gone.

My (curious) question is; can grouted soil nails be removed without taking our yard out with them? Do the rods come out cleanly or does the grout come out with them? Will pulling them out (and the dirt with them) create a sink hole in our yard? One of the rods was drilled into our yard at only about a 25 degree angle and a 18" depth (I saw that one go in). I am wondering if we can ever trench for sprinkler repairs at that depth. We have lots of other questions regarding this, but we are mostly curious if grouted soil nails can even be removed without causing greater problems for us. We really want them removed in case we need to or have to excavate our yard some day. They are probably tying up about 20 feet of our yard.

In the meantime, I have some calls in for a referral for a geotech/soil engineer in my city to help us sort out this mess. I am, unfortunately, learning more about soil nails than I ever wanted to. It will probably take weeks to get answers, but in the meantime I am curious if grouted soil nails can even be removed. Thank you.

 

[snsl123]

I learned that our state adopted the 2006 International Building Code. Is there a similar code (protection of adjacent property) as in the UBC and CBC?

The builder called and wants to see bids for the repairs (cracking) to our house.

I don't know if the nails are permanent or temporary. Since we aren't chit-chatty with the builder, it hasn't come up. The building inspector doesn't know. I asked. It's still up in the air. The attorney put the builder on notice that we are investigating them and we might request they be removed at his expense.

I spoke with a geotech firm today. Like PEinc wrote, they weren't overwhelmingly knowlegable about the soil nails. They are checking for someone with expertise in this area. I think it's a dead end. That doesn't mean I am done with these nails. I actually decided I want them out. (PEinc is rolling his eyes.)

 

[epongra2]

I'd ask the building official what Code set the jurisdiction follows. They may even have their own set of Codes.

 

[PEinc]

Just focusing on the real problem!

 

[jmgray]

You may want to talk to your lawer about writing a letter addressing/denying adverse possession. If the nails remain in place (especially if they are part of a structure/wall vs inactive rods in the ground) the current neighbors or any future owner of their land may legally attempt an easment of your effected land based on their historic and unattested (unless you have this letter) use of it.

 

[snsl123]

jmgray-that is an interesting thought. We'll look into it. Thank you.

 

[cvg]

at this point, if you intend to pursue anything in court - I would advise you to not have any discussions with the neighbor or his contractor. Do not discuss cost of anything, show him the bids for crack repair, agree or sign anything. Instead, have them ask your attorney. you have already established that this contractor is sneaky so let your hired gun be your representative.

 

[DRC1]

At this point you may have some serious problems. In most states, you are required to either grant an easement to a neighbor to support your property during construction or support it yourself. Since you allowed neither, you may be liable to the contractor for the damage due to the slope , including the gas main rupture. The $40,000 worth of damage is unforntunate, but if you did not properly notice the owner in writing at the time of the occurance, your recovery may be denied. Although you complain about the contractor, your course of action is probably against the neighbor.
As has been said several times in this dicussion, if the nails are temporary, you have not been damaged,and your hame value has not decreased.
You are currently spending a considerable amount of money on lawyers and engineers and in the end there will probably be very little recovery.
I would suggestyou dicuss havng the cosmetic damage fixed with your neighbor and the contractor. if that doesnot work fix the damage, look at the costs and decide if you want to pursue reimbursement.

 

[msquared48]

"I spoke with a geotech firm today. Like PEinc wrote, they weren't overwhelmingly knowlegable about the soil nails. They are checking for someone with expertise in this area. I think it's a dead end. That doesn't mean I am done with these nails. I actually decided I want them out."

This seems luuducrous to me, that a Geotech is not knowledgeable regarding soil nailing, when they have to set the geotechnical parameters for the design in the first place. Someone is feeding you a crock here. They know.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[snsl123]

DRC1--are you serious??! This was the neighbor's choice to remove their hillside, so they could have the convenience of a walk out side yard. It wasn't a natural event that caused my yard to start collapsing. It is all man made on their part.

(And, the gas main break was on the other side of the construction site.)

 

[snsl123]

Also, DRC1, the building inspector said he gave them several options to support the earthen wall (all but one utilizing their own property for support), but they chose soil nails because it was the cheapest method. Since, they had other options available, the builder is most certainly liable.

 

[PEinc]

msquared48, many geotechs know little or nothing about soil nailing. However, that often does not stop them from jumping right in. I admire the engineer who knows his or her limitations.

 

[cvg]

there a good many geotechs that could properly analyze the soil nail issue, but they would typically work for the better / larger geotech firms. Soil nailing is not often done for residential construction. It is done quite frequently for highway construction, so you could possibly get a referral for a good, experienced local geotech from the highway department.

 

[fattdad]

so you could possibly get a referral for a good, experienced local geotech from the highway department.

Unfortunatly, a right-many good experienced geotechnical engineering firms do not accept work for single-family residences. Too litigious!

The best way to get a qualified geotechnical engineering firm to get engaged is to have your lawyer hire the firm. It's unfortunate, but often this is the case.

f-d

p.s., this is an interesting and troubling thread. I hope that it all gets worked out.

¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

 

[epongra2]

Too add to the previous post...

So, you are a "good" geotech engineering firm that is already leary of litigation associated with single family residence work. Now, you are asked to work on a job that has a pretty good chance of ending up in in court...

What you need is a geotech expert who specializes in forensic work. They seem to be few and far between, and often time it is a semi-retired individual who now works out of the house.

Fattdad was right, if you have a lawyer who specializes in this type of litigation, he/she will often have contacts with forensic geotechs. Birds of a feather..

 

[Patgeotech]

An interesting thread to read.

We work with soil nails/soil anchors on a frequent basis and also from the other perspective of when a house is cracked (forensic approach one may say).

According to our legislation (South Africa), we cannot install soil nails beneath another property unless written permission is given by the owner of the house we are going to install the nails under. They should have notified you of what they were going to do (bad/slack communications).

As a standard paragraph, we always include the following in our reports/letters that 'no matter how well a lateral support design (soil nail) may be, there will ALWAYS be movement associated with it'. It is the way the system works and has been discussed earlier in the thread. Removing the nails could proof more troublesome to you, and your house in the long term

With being on both sides of a similiar position, I would steer away from the lawyer approach as it can only be expensive, time consuming and it will make communication with the neighbour difficult (if not already).

Depending on the soil conditions below your house, removing soil nails could be problematic. In very few cases (from a geotechnical point) installing the nails beneath a property can improve the soils. In terms of future excavation work on your property, removing the nails is a simple process easily taken care of by means of an angle grinder. Get the estimate to repare the cracks and "bypass the angels and go directly to God' i.e. speak directly to your neighbour as he/she is the person you will be living next to for the next few years or so.

Get all of your house checked/documented/photographed for cracks/movement etc. immediately so that you have a record on the current state of the house. My gut feeling tells me in your situation and the way you described their soil nail installation that there are not fully aware of what they are doing and they may not be geotechnically aware of the conditions beneath your house.


I am surprised that there are geotech firms that do not know anything about soil nails - but I suppose in terms of small residential applications, it would be expected.

Hope that the matter is resolved.

 

[DRC1]

My point was that in most places in the US the contractor is entitled to reasonable access to your property for support of an excavation, or it is incumbent on tyou as the abutting owner to provide support. Since the use of nails for temporary support (permenant support is a different issue) has not really caused any harm to your property, you had the right to stop work until the easment was obtained, but if you refused the easement, you may be responsible for the additional cost of the wall and any associated costs for that wall. My point is that as far as construction damage, many states have explicit laws on notice , which if not adhered to, can limit your ability to collect. Add to this that any construction law proceeding will be influencedas much by common law as by staute, I would say your caser is far from solid. I see you brining in more and more experts and legal advise for a case that has an upper limit of $40,000.Leagal fees are nearly impossible to recover. I caution yu that you may spend $60,000 to recover $20,000 from a neighbor who will no longer talk to you.

 

[msquared48]

DRC1:

I disagree here in part. Just because a decision was made to ignore the requirement for obtaining an easement to install the soil nails doses not imply any responsibility or legal obligation on the part of the transgressed party to grant that easement. That would be to say that if you thought that your neighbor would not grant you an easement, it is OK to proceed and force the issue, hoping to get the easement granted, because you could sue him later for damages if it was not. Sorry, but just because an easement is asked for does not mean it has to be granted. Otherwise, what is the purpose of the easement?

While it is true that anyone can sue anyone for anything anytime, what the contractor did really is not only trespassing, but could be tanamount to "adverse possession" if they are left in place without the easement being granted. This is really getting sticky legally.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

does anybody know how to cut a granite boulder?

 

[PEinc]

Wire saw?

Drill & split?

 

[geostructural]

I would like to add a few thoughts to this discussion. It has been stated in previous posts that you must give reasonable access for wall construction or you could face paying the difference. This has not been my experience. I work for a contractor that installs every types of shoring systems there is and we see issues with property lines all the time. Most developers know little about shoring so they will contact us for a design build solution. We always offer the cheapest alternative first, which usually entails drilling under the adjacent property if the cut is on the property line. When the neighbor doesn’t allow this we come up with another solution that can be done without encroaching on the adjacent property. This is something that the developer works out with adjacent neighbors. I have been involved in many projects that got very expensive for the developer because the adjacent owner would not allow drilling under their property. I have never heard of the developer taking legal action against the adjacent owner to recoup his added costs. In one case the neighbor wouldn’t allow it because he might want to develop his property in the future, no immediate plans he might just want to some day. It can’t be considered reasonable for you to give up space that you might use in the future so your neighbor can install permanent nails. It sounds to me like a developer just didn’t follow typical protocol.

I would strongly recommend against removing the soil nails. If they try to pull them out they could cause damage to any utilities that are nearby. If they dig them your yard will be a mess and will most likely damage utilities that are nearby. Soil nails are very easily cut if and when you need to cut them. They are typically just 1” diameter steel bars that can be cut off with a grinder. Just make sure that whatever they build doesn’t require the nails stay in place.

I think you tell them “no you can’t drill under my property” and that is the end of that, they need to go to plan B. I think the only issue where you can be compensated is for the vibration damage. I don’t see you getting anything for them drilling under your property, no damage has occurred. I would insist on seeing a set of the final plans for whatever they build though. Make sure that they are sealed by a professional engineer.

Anyhow, when is the BBQ with the new neighbors?