Removing Gaskets

[DAVIDSTECKER]

Does any know any technical bulletins regarding the removal for gaskets with sanding disks or “Scotch Brite” pads.
I recently had the intake manifold gaskets changed on my engine and within 3,000 miles my lower bearings were knocking.
I had the engine replaced and while I was talking to the mechanic he told me that the reason my bearings failed was that the dealer had used a power rotary tool to remove the gasket material from the heads and that the grinding dust had gotten into my oil.
I did find a very large amount of metal on my magnetic drain plug when I changed the oil after noticing my oil pressure drop off about 15 PSI. I changed the oil again about 36 hours later and removed still more metal.
I sent the truck to the dealer via my father and they changed the oil once more. They told my father that the metal they found was “Normal” wear.
When I confronted them about what I had found they would not listen to me and actually walked away from me when I challenged there explanations.
I guess that leads me to another question. How does one file a “claim” or other procedure to settle this type of problem?
Thanks for any input, David

 

[Fabrico]

It's not uncommon for mechanics to use Scotch Brite pads to remove gaskets. If this was a V-type engine, debris would enter through the valley area. It's hard to believe that area was not covered, as this can wipe out a cam.

Assuming the power cleaning was used on the head(s), with aluminum there can be quite a bit of debris generated, with iron there won't be much. Aluminum won't stick to the magnetic drain plug.

Many intake gaskets have a perforated steel core. What did the debris look like?

Whatever made its way into the sump would go through the oil pump and should have been caught by the oil filter. The oil pump could have been damaged and lost pressure.

Debris damage is easily discernable from wear. What did the beaings look like?

If the engine went south at 300 miles it would be one thing, but at 3,000 miles it will be hard to prove that cleaning debris caused the problem.

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

Regarding the Scotch Brite, a tool supplier I know believes that 3M sent out a bulletin stating that the product should not be used in this application.
I am looking for that and other documents on the subject currently.
By the time you completely seal off the lifter valley, if that is truly possible, you could have scraped off the gaskets.
The heads are iron and the material I took from the magnet was a very fine powder which is pretty consistent with material from iron.
Also there is the material coming from the pad its self. Highly abrasive and very fine.
The mechanic that changed out the engine pointed out the swirl marks left in my heads.
He stated that he and others at a dealership he once worked for found that engines that they knew the gaskets had been removed by the Scotch Brite method would go almost 10,000 miles in some cases before they had bearing failure but ALL of them did suffer bearing failure.
The damage occurs from a continuous abrasive slurry, not from chunks of gasket, so taking 3,000 miles to bring the bearings to an audible level is not out of the question for an engine in extremely good contention, which by all outward appearances mine was.
I noticed the pressure drop in less than 2,000 miles.
I have two of the oil filters and would have their contents analyzed.
I have not had the rest of the engine torn down, I am waiting until I find a way to go about this. I would probably find a third party such as SAE or other agreed upon mechanic to do the tear down and report their findings.

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

I found this GM document and starting on page 9 they state that Scotch Brite and other are not to be used and WILL void the warrenty.

http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/_res/pdf/EnginePdf/GM Goodwrench Engines Catalog (August 2004).pdf

 

[evelrod]

David, you have the right idea to have the engine analized by a competant shop. Cut open the filters or send them to have the oil and contents analized before jumping to any conclusions. In my opinion, there must be something else going on here. I've built hundreds of engines, mostly race related, over the years. I use Scotch Brite all the time with absolutely NO problems relating to 'bearings'. Incidently, bearing material is non ferrous and won't be on your drain plug but would have certainly been evident in the drain oil as shiney 'flakes'. Sloppy or outright criminal work ethic could more likely to be the problem, in my opinion. Given that, I still doubt that anything in the oil would get past even a cheap 40 micron filter in 3000 miles... I witnessed (in 1969 or 70) a neighbor try to destroy a Ford engine by dumping large amounts of grindind paste in the oil...did not work as the filter took most of it out and after 5000 miles he gave up and drained all the oil out and ran it down the 605 in second gear till it blew.

Like I said, David. There must be something else going on that could cause an engine to fail in 3000 miles after simply changing a manifold gasket and cleaning the surface with a Scotch Brite pad...Swirl marks? Maybe the guy used a GRINDER!!! Again, sloppy, criminally sloppy workmanship? Did someone forget to put oil in the engine and started it up dry? Was there some other pre existing condition that was masked by the manifold gasket problem and only became apparent after the change?

Beware that all knowing 'mechanic'...many of them are simply 'parts changers'. Pick a certified shop to do your investigative tear down and, let them know what is going on so that proper documentation can be done...step by step.

Good luck with what is obviously a costly effort.

Rod

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

Evelrod,
I think the GM manual sums it up by stating that the use of the Scotch brite and others like it are FORBIDEN to use.
Underlying problems, I've done all but three of the oil changes for the 285,000 miles on the engine and there has never been any metal on the magnet. I have kept very close track of all aspects of the motor.
When the mechanics saw the lifter valley, the exhaust valves, and the rest of the exposed parts they were amased at the extremly good condition of the engine.
From the moment I picked up my truck I had issues with the work.
It started with them not even setting the timing correctly and went down hill from there.

 

[Fabrico]

"It was perfect at 282,000 miles!" That ought to convince the jury. Maybe you can get them to pro-rate the work based on expected remaining miles. Be careful though, you may end up owing them more money. It sounds like your pet finally got ill and died.

 

[patprimmer]

For crying out loud.

We wasted our time trying to blame a mechanic because a 285,000 mile motor wore out.

There are no highly loaded bearing surfaces, or pressure fed bearing surfaces visible with the valley cover only off. The condition of the visible sides of the lifters is not an indicator of main or big end bearing condition.

On another note, the material used to clean the gasket surface is not nearly so important as ensuring it does not get into the oil wettened areas. Tape and rags works wonders in this regard, as does a vacuum cleaner.

I use a gasket scraper to get rid of the gasket, then solvent and scotch bright, or even wet and dry rubbing paper to clean the surface, then solvent and a rag. I then carefully pull back the tape, lift the tape and rag clear, then clean any obvious areas with the vacuum then wipe all areas with solvent.

If in doubt, I run for 15 or 20 min then change the oil.

If in real doubt, ie engine was dirty and difficult to tape up effectively, I drop the oil, flush with solvent, drop the solvent. NOTE I do not run with solvent nor flushing oil, I simply wash down and drain.

I then add new oil and filter, run 500 miles and change oil and filter again.



Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[evelrod]

Like I said, David. There must be something else going on that could cause an engine to fail in 3000 miles after simply changing a manifold gasket and cleaning the surface with a Scotch Brite pad...

A "little something"? 285,000 miles on a gas engine?

As to litigation---I pulled the forum up on the Ford computer so the shop forman and fleet mgr. could see it. I think they are still laughing. What a crock. I spent an hour researching 'Scotch Brite'. Sorry, David, I can only equate your problem to my crew chiefs ex when she siezed up his MGB..."But the oil light never came on!" Yeah, MGB's have a guage.

Rod :-(

 

[toyotech]

I have been using a product made by 3M called a "Roloc Bristle Disc" and had great success with this and a good sharp scraper. I also have heard of horror stories about engine damage or failure due to the use of "scotch-brite" pads. The roloc bristle disc is made up of small rubber type bristles and work great!

 

[LordMalaK]

the best gasket remover is still a razor blade and elbow grease. I've seen too many mechanics (myself included) destroy heads and intake manifolds with a scotch brite pad- ESPECIALLY aluminum.

The rol-loc bristle disc works pretty good but it's usually a 1 job disc, so it gets expensive replacing a few hundred over time.

 

[BXRStang]

the best gasket remover is still a razor blade and elbow grease. I've seen too many mechanics (myself included) destroy heads and intake manifolds with a scotch brite pad- ESPECIALLY aluminum.

I have to agree with this statement and Pat Primers. I like Scotch Brites for there convenience, but they aren't for everyone. I would use them on iron components and real tough aluminum jobs, and then flush the motor with solvent, sometimes two or more times using a brush to remove the "dust". I would then flush some fresh oil (~1 liter)through the engine and then restart the engine with a new filter and more fresh oil. I would then recommend the customer bring the car for another oil change within a couple of weeks. I dunno, maybe overkill, but it worked for me.

Cael

 

[unclesyd]

I like the old commercial on TV concerning the addition of mouse milk to a old 6 cyl Chevrolet Engine and then add a pound or two of dirt and water and the old gal keeps on going.

I know of a case where a person added over a pound of Silica Flour used in Fiberglass fabrication to a slant 6 and the owner didn't know anything about it until he went to change the oil. After removing the drain plug nothing came out and it ended up that the oil pan had to be removed to get the oil out. The stuff had set up like cement in both the pan and the filter. I was told that the old oil looked brand new. After reassembly fresh oil was added and as far as I know there was never any problems the engine until the car was scrapped due to the body tried to fall off.

A good oil filter works wonders on a pressurized oiling system.

 

[BXRStang]

I can't say I have ever watched that one, I do love the infomercial where they drain all of an engines vital fluids and use a fire hose to add additional "stress" to the running engine though.
I think we have kinda lost track of the post here though, but it is fun.

Carl