Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

Register Log in
  • Congratulations waross on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Reproducing Obsolete Parts 5

Status
Not open for further replies.
ranchak

ranchak

Mechanical
Sep 20, 2009
5
US
I have a small business in which I would like to reproduce some parts for motorcycles. The motorcycles are models that are over 20 years old. The parts that I want to reproduce are now discontinued, although occasionally a new part may show up on eBay. I approached the manufacturer of these motorcycles to try and gain "their" permission to remanufacturer these parts. I was told by their legal department that someone would get back to me. This was almost 6 months ago and I have not heard back from them.

My question is will I be infringing on their design or patent (although the parts I will be making are not patented)? Some of their parts bear their corporate name which I will not reproduce on my replacement part. Is there a timeframe in which replacement parts can/cannot be made? I have tried to google for an answer, but the best answer I found was on this forum:


Not quite the same situation as mine, the OEM manufacturer in my case does not supply an alternative part.

I have another part that I would make which is a replacement for a tool that is still in production and parts a readily available. What are the consequences in this situation? Thanks for all your help.
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Sort by date Sort by votes
Irrespective of anything else, you cannot simply sit back and say "well I asked them (once), and they never got back to me."

You want to make the part.
You have to drive them to give you an answer or at least put more effort into it.
If you want it badly enough you won't just sit back and "wait", you'll need to take the initiative.

This may require they make some effort. They won't make that effort based on one casual approach, you'll need to show you are serious.

That may mean making a nuisance of yourself but be prepared to be told "no" just to make you shut up.
Ask yourself if there is something in it for them and something more in it for you.

First rule: never approach the lawyers.

Lawyers can't answer your question.

If you say: "If I make this part, will you sue me?" they may smile enigmatically and lick their lips.
If you ask them "Is it OK for me to make this?" they will think about it and decide you are asking for free legal advise and that it is not in their interests to answer it.
Especially if there is no legal impediment to you doing so.
The natural response for the legal people is to do and say nothing that may prejudice any future possible litigation.

Second rule: make it a commercial query, not a legal query.

You don't really want to know where you stand legally, you want the manufacturer to say "Go ahead. We don't have a problem."
Except, chances are they may sit and worry about liability if they allow you to go ahead as this may be tantermount to authorising you. This means they will go back to the legal guys and and ask a legal opinion about something else. The legal guys will now advise "No." It is the safest thing to do.

The advantage of asking a commercial question is you ask a commercial manager, the sales and marketing manager would be best.
He might ask himself "What's the risk?" and ask the legal people but he ought also to ask "What's in it for us?"

This is a much safer question and you may want to think about how it could be a benefit to them and to you.... you don't want to pay royalties, you want to sell them a service and show them how to generate some good PR.

As the manufacturer, if you approached them and said "I need this part, can you still supply it?" the probable answer is "This is a discontinued part. We no longer manufacture nor hold stocks." End of story.
They sell nothing and they have an unhappy customer or would be customer.

But, why don't they make it?
Low volume.
Not worth their effort.
Of course, at the time they obsoleted it they expected people to move on to newer models. But by now anyone who moved on, has moved on and anyone who has one now is an enthusiast.

Now think about it.
They really don't want to make these parts.
OK.
But does that mean they don't want owners of these bikes to be able to maintain or restore them?
With the passage of time, their attitude to these older bikes may well have changed.

That means they have a possible need to be able to supply these parts but not manufacturer them.
But they are a natural target for enquiries for replacement parts (as are owners clubs who often want to link up with sympathetic manufacturers to gain access to drawings, old tooling etc etc and are often humoured)

So, if it was me I'd re-approach them and say that you want to be able to supply these parts.
Option 1: as an independent supplier.
Option 2: and/or as an approved retro-manufacturer.
Option 3: sell via the original manufacturer

What you want is to be able to make parts for your clients and access the enquiries they may receive but which you never would see.

It may be that what you and the manufacturer can do is collaborate on the manufacture of "Heritage" parts whereby they can either refer enquiries to you or use you as an approved sub-manufacturer for any enquiries for obsolete parts.

What I'd guess you'd like is to be able to manufacture other parts as and when they become obsolete, acquire old tooling, drawings etc. and perhaps not just for this manufacturer.

See if you can't put together a really attractive proposition that will make them some money, not huge amounts, but which will make them some real good PR and help them build better long term links with their clients.

They don't want to under take small volume manufacture but I'd bet they'd like to to be able to support some of the owners of older models but without all the hassle.

So, it may come to nothing but:
[ul][li]you must be more persistent[/li]
[li]you may need to try and find a deal they may find attractive[/li]
[li]forget the lawyer, you need to talk to their sales and marketing director. Lawyers would like to sue you, or anyone. Sales and Marketing guys are always looking for more money, more income and grandiose schemes to let them look good to their bosses. You don't want to pay royalties but if you and they can't find some attractive win/win deal for both of you, it shouldn't be for lack of trying.[/li][/ul]

In the end, you may get no where.
You may get no response but at least document a lot of effort, a lot more effort than one contact, to show willing.
Then, if you decide to go ahead, what's the worst that can happen? they sue you.

They sue you.

Small business? providing a service for their clients they can't or won't provide themselves? will that look good for them? In the end, what can they expect to win from you and why would they want to sue you, even if legally they can? Spite? a matter of principle? The negatives may do them more damage.

They would have to balance the possible benefit to them of winning the case (nil? any possible profit or damages will have been eaten up by lawyers) against the possible negative publicity.

I'd guess you might produce your own drawings and your own design for the part with some insignificant differences from the manufacturer's part and market it as an "equivalent" part and that there is no implicit or implied warranty or endorsement by the original manufacturer.

I have no idea how legal any of it is but in most cases of copyright, patent or trademark protection, protection is only obtained by one person being willing to sue another.
If the manufacturer sues, have a rethink. If they don't be happy.

But don't initiate any legal actions.

But I'd suggest seriously that a liaison between you and the manufacturer might be more profitable than going it alone. I'd spend some serious thinking time on how to put together a good proposal for them.... but maybe think about "heritage" parts for more than one obsolete model and more than one manufacturer's product (even if it is just as a concept) and show something in it for them for them to take you seriously.

I'd have the package pretty well fully finalised (even if just conceptually) so that it is a "go or no go" decision, not a "nice idea" lets get some one else.

Also, try not to ask questions with "yes or no" answers that put you in a hole. Try to ask either or questions where they get to look at different options in a go ahead package... you need to start with an assumption that it will all go ahead and get them to work along with you.

There is always a risk.
In the end, you can always just go ahead and see what happens.

But be careful acting on advice like this if you think local law might put you in jail....







JMW
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
If the parts are twenty years old then the patents are expired. Just don't manufacture any copyright-protected logos or artwork and you'll be fine.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
JMW: I followed up numerous times with the OEM, with no response from them. Which is better for them, this way they are not the bad guy saying "no".

I still do not know if it is legal to reproduce a discontinued part. I know the OEM has no interest in producing these parts, they are too busy selling current models.

I can try contacting the Marketing Mgr and see if there is any interest.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
There are lots of non OEM replacement parts on the market and have been for many many years.

You don't say where you are from and this is the World Wide Web so it's most likely you are American as they are normally the ones who presume we are all psychic. Patent and design laws vary from country to country, but generally, unless there is something innovative about the part it cannot be effectively patented so I doubt patent will be an issue even if it was not past patent expiry date age which it is in most countries.

Once again, depending on where you are, registered design may be infringed if you make an exact copy, but a few insignificant changes normally fix that. Check the relevant laws where YOU live and where you intend to make and sell these.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Several manufacturers make replacement parts for industrial valves, especially after patents run out. Be careful not to reproduce the OEM literature as copyrights don"t expire along with patents.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I live in the USA. In my literature or on my website I clearly state that this is a reproduction part that fits specific models. I do state that this part is made from an OEM model, but I do not say that it is an OEM part, but a reproduction.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
if you really want a legal opinion, ask your own attorney. Don't expect that legal "opinion" to come off this forum.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I thought that someone here on this forum would know the answer, there's alot of experience amongst the members. Does a manufacturer own the rights to dictate if obsolete parts can/cannot be made when they (the manufacturer) no longer wants to make parts to support their product?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
ranchak said:
Does a manufacturer own the rights to dictate if obsolete parts can/cannot be made when they (the manufacturer) no longer wants to make parts to support their product?
Click to expand...
In the case of generic equivalents, not generally. Don't run afoul of patents, don't reproduce anything copyrightable, and don't represent your reproductions as the real thing, and you're most likely fine.


However, with regard to product liability, you'll find that even if you functionally duplicate the OEM's part, you could be on the hook for any damages arising from failure of your duplicates, despite the fact that the engineering was originally done by the OEM.

If the OEM doesn't deal with you, and just ignores you, it affirms the fact that they have no duty of care to your customers—and leaves you on the hook for any faults. If they were to authorize your reproductions, however, it might extend the duty of care to them, and expose the OEM to liability. That might be why the lawyers aren't anxious to talk to you—they want it to be clear that they want nothing to do with your liability.

The other result of this is that your enterprise will be responsible for offering an engineered device to the public, and will be liable for its defects and flaws. The way to limit your product liability is to do your own due dilligence with regard to the suitability of the part for its function. You definitely shouldn't rely solely upon the fact (or more likely, speculation) that the OEM part was properly designed.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
If you don't ask your laywer to design a bridge, don't ask us to give legal opinion.

I may have missed it, but you never said what the part was.

If it was something like a muffler or an air filter or a mirror or tail light lens, I doubt there are any safety issues, but once again, I'm not a lawyer and I think the USA probably has the toughest environment in the world re product liability.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Apsix, great link.

A strong market for "long-discontinued" parts.
The manufacturer not making them, but gets involved "to protect their name"
How much good did they really do themselves?

It also sounds like it was competitors who were stirring it up... what were they supplying?

So there you are, it can all go pear shaped.
I'd guess the guy should have cut a deal with the manufacturer to begin with....

JMW
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Layson's CEO on Utube:
and some comment on the MOPAR blog here:

This being Chrysler I doubt anyone should be surprised they have made a mess of things.
I'd also guess no one is fooled by the quality thing.... what were they trying to do? make sure repro parts were of the same low quality as the originals?
Be very interesting to see the outcome.

JMW
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
If it's for your own personal use, who cares? To take the argument ab absurdum , what should you do if you shit a teletubby look-alike?


- Steve
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Post it on the internet and sell tickets.... then sell on ebay.
OH, sorry, no, that's VM and JC lookalikes.
Not sure about Tele Tubbies.

But SG I thought it was clear these were not for own use but for resale and hence it does matter, especially if the police are going to conduct dawn raids and haul you off to jail and mess up your inventory on the say so of some disgruntled manufacturer who has been wound up by your competitors. That's what happened to Layson.

Still, it does suggest the business model I suggested is a viable one and that it is better to cut the manufacturer in on the proceeds than not.



JMW
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Skim reading will be my downfall. I have a friend who regularly makes parts for his >80 year-old bikes. Must read more carefully! Still, if anyone wants a Tinky Winky, I have one.

- Steve
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The parts I will be reproducing are cosmetic pieces. There will be a few mechanical parts made, but nothing that would be safety oriented.

I agree with TheFeds, I think the OEM is sitting on the fence so there is no liability or risk. I'm going to move ahead with my projects and see where I end up. I think as long as I don't misrepresent myself or my parts I will be safe. Thanks for all of the advice.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Steve-

A star, just because that was hilarious.

V
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top