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nedharris39
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thread174-58057
the IEEE Style Guide (80220)
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is very helpful
the IEEE Style Guide (80220)
@
is very helpful
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requirements & use of "shall", etc. 2
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Shall, should, must etc. are left overs from the passive voice era. Instead use active voice and imperative mood or commands to avoid confusion. Define the requirements. Must is a four-letter word. Try the command method. You can write using shall in active voice. I switched to the imperative mood.
Lots more examples including governmental and private criteria exist on the web.
Lots more examples including governmental and private criteria exist on the web.
Beautiful. From the first reference above:
Passive - The gravel shall be placed and shaped by power equipment to the specified lines, grades, cross-sections, and depths, without segregation.
Active voice - Place and shape gravel to the specified dimensions without segregation using power equipment.
They managed to take a clear unambiguous requirement and substituted ambiguity. This is an improvement?
Passive - The gravel shall be placed and shaped by power equipment to the specified lines, grades, cross-sections, and depths, without segregation.
Active voice - Place and shape gravel to the specified dimensions without segregation using power equipment.
They managed to take a clear unambiguous requirement and substituted ambiguity. This is an improvement?
I believe ASME Y14.100 4.26.4 defines the use of shall etc. in mechanical drawings. So for places that work to that standard that's the way to do it.
A fundamental rule of most mechanical drawings is that you state the required end result, not how to achieve it.
Seems that the example stevenal found breaks those rules.
If construction workers are too ill educated to understand shall etc. then that's another issue;-).
thread1010-222641 is related.
A fundamental rule of most mechanical drawings is that you state the required end result, not how to achieve it.
Seems that the example stevenal found breaks those rules.
If construction workers are too ill educated to understand shall etc. then that's another issue;-).
thread1010-222641 is related.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Passive - The gravel shall be placed and shaped by power equipment to the specified lines, grades, cross-sections, and depths, without segregation.
An active revision could be:
Place the gravel and shape by power equipment to the specified lines, grades, cross-sections, and depths, without segregation.
An active revision could be:
Place the gravel and shape by power equipment to the specified lines, grades, cross-sections, and depths, without segregation.
But still, to this mechanical mind, you are telling them what to do not what to achieve. I don't care what or how they do it so long as the achieve what I want them to.
It can make a difference as often there is more than one way to skin a cat. For instance, on a plated part you may want some holes to be free of plating. You don't care if they make the part with holes, plug the holes & then plate it, or if they plate the part without holes then make the holes. However, I often see notes that would preclude one of these options.
So I'll stick with "HOLES SHALL BE FREE OF PLATING" or similar thank you very much.
It can make a difference as often there is more than one way to skin a cat. For instance, on a plated part you may want some holes to be free of plating. You don't care if they make the part with holes, plug the holes & then plate it, or if they plate the part without holes then make the holes. However, I often see notes that would preclude one of these options.
So I'll stick with "HOLES SHALL BE FREE OF PLATING" or similar thank you very much.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
But how explicit is 'avoid', does that mean absolutely none, or maybe a little is OK...
You may not like it JLSeagull but the relevant Industry Standards for what I do don't apparently follow the latest grammar trends. They explicitly use shall etc. where appropriate.
You may not like it JLSeagull but the relevant Industry Standards for what I do don't apparently follow the latest grammar trends. They explicitly use shall etc. where appropriate.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Kenat,
Your preference for passive voice does not bother me. I too read ASME, API and many other standards, recommended practices etc. Few of the older standards used the command form. Words like shall clarify requirements. Verbs such as consider or avoid advise the reader of noteworthy issues with some flexibility.
The use of active voice and command form were brought to my attention in about 1986 at a technical writing seminar. I slowly began using the command form in my specifications. Today it seems very natural. Try using the active voice yourself - or don't. Sometimes you may need to use the word shall. Sometimes avoid is not strong enough. In a phrase like "Exclude carbon steel piping components in fluids with the design temperature below -20 degree F" the word exclude is stronger than avoid or consider. Furnish and install type 316L piping components, and the appropriate ASTM (or ASME) specification would be stronger.
Many governmental regulations and newer standards use the active voice in command form to reduce wordiness and add precision.
Your preference for passive voice does not bother me. I too read ASME, API and many other standards, recommended practices etc. Few of the older standards used the command form. Words like shall clarify requirements. Verbs such as consider or avoid advise the reader of noteworthy issues with some flexibility.
The use of active voice and command form were brought to my attention in about 1986 at a technical writing seminar. I slowly began using the command form in my specifications. Today it seems very natural. Try using the active voice yourself - or don't. Sometimes you may need to use the word shall. Sometimes avoid is not strong enough. In a phrase like "Exclude carbon steel piping components in fluids with the design temperature below -20 degree F" the word exclude is stronger than avoid or consider. Furnish and install type 316L piping components, and the appropriate ASTM (or ASME) specification would be stronger.
Many governmental regulations and newer standards use the active voice in command form to reduce wordiness and add precision.
ASME Y14.100-2004 Engineering Drawing Practices 4.26.3 covers uses of shall, will, should & May. Forgive me but 2004 doesn't seem that long ago.
Stating the requirement not how to get there is a fundamental rule of drawings to ASME Y14.5M-1994 1.4(e).
For an Assembly work instruction or procedure or similar I don't have a problem with it.
However, on drawings, it usually isn't correct to my understanding of the relevant standards (at least those of the US).
Stating the requirement not how to get there is a fundamental rule of drawings to ASME Y14.5M-1994 1.4(e).
For an Assembly work instruction or procedure or similar I don't have a problem with it.
However, on drawings, it usually isn't correct to my understanding of the relevant standards (at least those of the US).
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Nice try, KENAT, but I think the OP has made up his mind, and feels everyone should follow suit. Fortunately he does not make mechanical drawings Per ASME (I hope).
Like you, I was trained to use the ASME standards instead of the ones he references (none of which apply to mechanical part definition) therefore "shall" sounds (and is) correct for our purposes. That he refuses to acknowledge the importance of following pertinent standards is suprising, though.
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]
Like you, I was trained to use the ASME standards instead of the ones he references (none of which apply to mechanical part definition) therefore "shall" sounds (and is) correct for our purposes. That he refuses to acknowledge the importance of following pertinent standards is suprising, though.
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]
Thanks ewh, I think maybe you're confusing the OP and JLSeagull though.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
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