Residential Engineering 8

[xkcstructural]

So I've been posting on here cause I came from commerical and started at a residential firm.

And things are happening that I wouldn't do in commerical or design that way. I am having a hard time understanding where the disconnect it. At first I thought it was my understanding of residential design so I took the year to learn how things are done and after that year I still have the feeling that it's not up to par. Anytime I bring up something not being built to code like rebar at 3" clear cover or bolts not being installed properly (at an angle, not flush with base plate, wrong size....etc) it's "It's probably fine, it's residential loading" but then I have to write a letter saying it was built per plans and specification with out including the deviations from plan or code.

Is this normal?

 

[milkshakelake]

@NorthCivil I'm not going to give away my numbers as freely as you have (which is quite nice of you and helpful), but let's say my residential rate is about double what you mentioned. If the owner doesn't pay, we don't release the work, which solves a lot of headaches.

@Greenalleycat Yeah, one of the main problems is quibbling over money. Larger residential or commercial is more accepting of fees because they've been around the block a few times.

 

[Greenalleycat]

I would disagree with being unable to make money from residential, having seen first hand that it can be done very lucratively even whilst maintaining high standards
But I would also agree it's hard to do so - I think it's underrated how much the "consultant" aspect of "consulting engineer" comes into play in residential vs commercial so it isn't enough to just be a smart engineer, you have to be able to market yourself and demonstrate the value of your skills too

 

[XR250]

Honestly, my default rate is about 0.2% in residential. My rates are similar to MSL's.

 

[jerseyshore]

I think mid level residential jobs are the toughest to make a killing on. I'm thinking those bigger houses where you have to do the drafting but it's a PITA custom home with no simple joist/ bearing wall layout. Then they change the living room on you halfway thru and you have to track all the loads down again. Oh and they beat you up on your fee at the start.

Smaller stuff that you can knock out in a week or less is very lucrative IMO for residential. Quick reports, a few sketches, a couple of letters, minimal software needed. Just about volume obviously.

I know this discussion has gotten a bit side tracked but it is relevant because if you're making good money doing something then it makes it a lot easier to deal with the headaches.

 

[milkshakelake]

I've definitely been in that situation where I was haggled to the bone for a custom house, and the workload tended to be ludicrously high. Those random site visits and reports do pay more per hour, and seem to involve less risk as well.

The worst residential projects for me are the ones where they're extending a house. It involves just as much paperwork and fighting with building department as any other building, the owners do not understand why they need a lateral system and support of excavation for a tiny 5' extension, and it becomes a nightmare all around. I've been charging way more per square foot for those buildings, about as much as designing the whole house, because the work amount is about the same. The business still comes in.

 

[Eng16080]

I'm in a similar boat with residential work. I recently left my job to take a year or so off (or until savings run out!) with the plan being to eventually start my own firm. Being that I have the most experience with residential, I was planning on targeting that work, but the more I think about it, the less I know if I really want to continue doing this. (Maybe a job at the post office would be better!)

I'm highly detailed with my structural plans and sometimes it just seems like my efforts would be better spent doing something else. It almost seems inevitable with residential builders that there will be major issues during construction, and when there are, everybody is looking at you to drop everything to come up with a quick fix and certify it. Sure, everyone will say it's just residential work, all these things I just spent days working on don't really matter. Personally, if it doesn't matter, then I'd rather not be involved with it from the start. I want to work on projects where good engineering is actually needed, not just some commodity that's required because the building inspector says he needs stamped plans.

To be fair, not every project has issues, but far too many seem to. Even since I've left my job, I hear from my former coworkers about how a lot of the jobs I was involved in are now getting screwed up during construction.

To be a little more optimistic, here are a few things that I would try to focus on if I was going to go after residential work on my own. Whether or not this applies to your situation, I'm not sure:
[ol 1]
[li]Incorporate a well defined inspection schedule for the project, with the stipulation being that a final sign off of the project will only be provided contingent on passing these inspections. The inspections would be provided either by myself or by another individual or 3rd party under my oversight. I would mention the requirement for these inspections on day one, and it would be stated directly in the proposal. The structural plans would include the inspection schedule. The client could have the option to hire me only for design services and not for construction administration, but the inspections would be a requirement regardless of my involvement during construction. Of course, if I would not be providing construction admin., then I would also not provide a final sign off of the project.
[/li]
[li]Contingent on the inspection requirements noted above, if I was going to provide a final letter certifying the project, as others have said above, I would not say something like "The project is fully in compliance with the structural plans." Rather, it would be more along the lines of "Based on the following list of inspections conducted on so and so dates, the structural design intent has been met." The inspections would also have language stipulating the limitations. I think this is all reasonable considering that it's impossible to inspect 100 percent of a structure. Realistically, spot checks are being provided throughout with there being an emphasis on the higher risk areas.
[/li]
[li]Finally, I think it might be helpful to lower your expectations regarding the abilities of contractors. Even on some high end residential work, it seems like we end up with the low bidder. Whether they simply aren't competent or just don't have the time to look at details, I'm not sure.
[/li]
[/ol]

Some clients/builders will not agree with this level of oversight concerning inspections, but that will presumably eliminate those kinds of clients. Whether this strategy can work in reality, I don't yet know. I suppose if there are enough other engineers who are more lenient, then perhaps I'll have no business. Still, I think there are people willing to pay for quality, and I know that there are a lot of clients, who in hindsight, would've preferred more oversight by the engineer.

 

[XR250]

In my market, you would be out of business quickly

 

[xkcstructural]

Wow, nice feed back.

Adjusting to residential has been a task.

At my current place you don't seal unless you become a principal/ owner. I'm hoping as I move up I will have more control over what I agree to. I do have my PE but do not seal here.

So I think that's where the frustration comes from. I do observations for the EOR and say the rebar is stabbed into grade they okay it and the contractor pours the concrete. I return to the office to write the letter and write this exception and am told to remove it and write that it has been built to plans and specifications.


Thanks for the insight and being able to relate to other engineers.

 

[Eng16080]

In my market, you would be out of business quickly

You're probably right about that! At a fee of 0.2% of (I assume) construction cost for the residence, I would have to take a hard look at my current workflow/efficiency. I don't think I could get to the point of being profitable while not being afraid I was overlooking something. That seems way too low of a fee, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[jerseyshore]

Periodic inspections? No chance that would ever be a thing in the NJ/ northeast residential market. They want you out there at the beginning and maybe the end with a bunch of blurry text message pictures in between.

I will say that working for someone else who signs & seals everything vs putting your own name on a drawing or sketch or letter is different as well. When it's you and only you, you certainly think much harder about everything that you put your stamp on.

In residential, moreso than other project types, firm but fair with consistency is very important IMO. If you are consistent with how you operate, you develop those relationships with clients and set a standard for your name. Learning where to draw the line is engineering judgement, but once you have a good grip on that, you can be very successful.

 

[milkshakelake]

They definitely don't want the EOR doing periodic inspections. Every time I come, I bring thousands of problems. I tell clients to keep me away if possible, even if it hurts my fees. That's probably not ethical, but I gotta keep a reputation like everyone else.

 

[jerseyshore]

A older engineer told me when I first started that the best jobs are the ones you get paid for, but are never built. That's the dream, x100 for residential.

 

[XR250]

You're probably right about that! At a fee of 0.2% of (I assume) construction cost for the residence, I would have to take a hard look at my current workflow/efficiency. I don't think I could get to the point of being profitable while not being afraid I was overlooking something. That seems way too low of a fee, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

That is the % of my billing that I get stiffed on. My point was that I rarely ever have a problem getting paid for my work - a common complaint in Residential.

 

[AgMechEngr]

In my neck of the woods, residential contractors (and some commercial), do not see the value in engineers or architects. All they care about is getting a permit, so you are left with the dilemma of how much time you can afford to dedicate to set of plans. They often come to me with full designs that they worked out with subcontractors and just want me to review and stamp, which I am not in the business of doing.

 

[manstrom]

We do a lot of residential. I am rarely asked to write a letter stating that everything was built to code. Designed to code - yes. Inspections are done by the county or a special inspector. I would never clearly state "was built to code". I would say, "according to 3rd party reports, there are no outstanding deficiencies" or something to that affect.

It comes down to wording of letters. I've been in court where an engineer wrote in a letter "the house is in good shape" but had terrible foundation problems. He chose the wrong words and ended up losing the lawsuit. If he said "based on out limited visual observation, the house appears to be in suitable condition", he would might have been off the hook.

 

[JStructsteel]

I will agree with AgMechEngr....I had a discussion on Tick Tock (of all places) where I had commented on a residential basement pour where you could see about 13 columss. A small house too it seemed. I said it looks like someone needs a new engineer, and that the design could be more efficient.

Of course the 'Ive been building houses for 30 years" vibe came out.....I work with Architects and Engineers everyday, yada yada yada.

Its good filler work, but I dont want to make it all my work.

 

[haynewp]

In my neck of the woods, residential contractors (and some commercial), do not see the value in engineers or architects. All they care about is getting a permit, so you are left with the dilemma of how much time you can afford to dedicate to set of plans. They often come to me with full designs that they worked out with subcontractors and just want me to review and stamp, which I am not in the business of doing.

That sounds familiar, I see you’re also in GA. I really like it on CM at Risk projects when they try to get the owner on their side and convince them that they’re saving money by doing some kind of half-ass subcontractor design.

 

[WinelandV]

In my previous job, we specifically avoided calling any site visits "inspections" as that connotates that you looked at EVERYTHING. We made "observations" in the site visit letter, especially noting that we did NOT look at everything.

Please note that is a "v" (as in Violin) not a "y".

 

[MyCupboard]

xkcstructural, in my experience that is NOT normal. i have been in residential for a while and we would be asked ALL THE TIME to write letters saying everything is okay. If things were wrong we would NOT say that it was installed per the drawings but we WOULD calculate it and say if the condition was adequate. if it was not okay we would recommend a repair. if it was determined to be okay, we would write specifically how it was installed and why it was adequate for this condition. this makes the contractors happy because it doesn't say "this is wrong, but ok" and it makes my liability happy because i actually checked to see if it's okay and i did not lie about it in writing. At no point should you ever lie in engineering, saying something is done per code when it is not, or done per plans when it is not. If someone is confident that it is okay, and they don't want to show calculations or reasoning why it's okay in a letter, that's fine - some engineers have just been around so long they have a good idea of what's fine and what's not....but they shouldn't expect you to do the same if you don't feel it's adequate.

 

[xkcstructural]

Yeah I find it adequate to say it's okay that it wasn't installed per AISC or per mfg but the design has been evaluated and accepted but I'm not allowed to say that. I have to write a blanket letters that says everything has been done and meets our plans and specifications which I find to be a little lazy and negligent. If your not willing to justify why you accepted an installation then should you be accepting it in the first place. It really is a dumb position to put people in and makes me question not residential but just this place.