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responibility's and eduction for struc. drafter
- Thread starter joemarch
- Start date
Joe,
As a 43 year old electrical/designer studying for an electro/mechanical engineering degree, some occasions I have have been given responsibilities from cradle to grave. This is where an engineer gives me a top level picture of what needs to be done and I have to run with it. Of course, I always present my engineering with facts, capture it myself and catch the flack if I can design it better (or even design it different in some cases.)
This goes for any electrical or mechanical designs within my skill, small board design, schematic capture, layout, first article assemble and test. I have also done cabinet and wiring electrical design and mechanical engineering design such as test boxes and cabinets using Solidworks and AutoCAD to capture the mechanical design parts and assembly.
On the other hand, engineering work usually goes to the engineers (as it should) and most of the time designers capture as the engineer has designed, though it is a fuzzy line from when engineering support stops and engineering that we do starts.
Drafters on the other hand are defined as the support personel that captures the detail (Only CAD) of the design but ALL of the design is engineered by someone else. Be careful, as drafters and/or designers are asked to more without recompense, recognition or responsibility. We do in hopes of reward which rarely is the case.
As a 43 year old electrical/designer studying for an electro/mechanical engineering degree, some occasions I have have been given responsibilities from cradle to grave. This is where an engineer gives me a top level picture of what needs to be done and I have to run with it. Of course, I always present my engineering with facts, capture it myself and catch the flack if I can design it better (or even design it different in some cases.)
This goes for any electrical or mechanical designs within my skill, small board design, schematic capture, layout, first article assemble and test. I have also done cabinet and wiring electrical design and mechanical engineering design such as test boxes and cabinets using Solidworks and AutoCAD to capture the mechanical design parts and assembly.
On the other hand, engineering work usually goes to the engineers (as it should) and most of the time designers capture as the engineer has designed, though it is a fuzzy line from when engineering support stops and engineering that we do starts.
Drafters on the other hand are defined as the support personel that captures the detail (Only CAD) of the design but ALL of the design is engineered by someone else. Be careful, as drafters and/or designers are asked to more without recompense, recognition or responsibility. We do in hopes of reward which rarely is the case.
Hey JOEMARCH,
This is an area of great interest to me.
First a little background... I am a Structural Designer (most frequently drafter) that has had quite a few years in this exact situation. I graduated from a Tech School with an A.S.. I have worked in offices where the Structural Engineer has done ALL of the work and my job was drafting. I have also had the pleasure of working for an Engineer that was willing to teach me more of the engineering as well as take on more of the responsibilities. He was great. The first thing to remember here is that the Drafter will always be a drafter unless he/she can commit to going after the P.E.. Drafters, as I have seen it, have no higher position to aspire to. This tends to build in some frustration over time. In my experiences, I was allowed to take on related design tasks that help the project while they DO NOT involve liability for the engineer. Let's face it, in Structural Engineering, if there is a mistake in the calculations, somebody is going to die (well, maybe not THAT drastic). In Mechanical enginneering, a room may be too hot or too cold - both are fixable.
As far as classes go, check out your local universities to see if they offer any "Adult Ed" classes that would help cover a few of the design areas. Usually, I have found them to be hard to get. Another avenue could be for the drafter to take a look at computer courses that would teach them about writing computer programs (like Autolisp, VBA, etc.) that could then be coupled with some learning from an engineer to create a program that will help draft AND provide some automated drafting services. I have tried this with a simple beam design. My program will size the beam based on selected points in the drawing and entered loads to draw a beam, label it, and create a text file with all the calculations in it that I can print and give to the engineer for review/records. Another option would be to teach small aspects of design (such as spread footings) during the project that requires these. This would require you (assuming that you are the engineer) to take the time to teach as the project allows. Over time, your drafter will be able to grasp more of each project which will make them better and save you time. The drafter will feel better about the project and "going the extra mile" as well.
Hope this helps,
Paul
This is an area of great interest to me.
First a little background... I am a Structural Designer (most frequently drafter) that has had quite a few years in this exact situation. I graduated from a Tech School with an A.S.. I have worked in offices where the Structural Engineer has done ALL of the work and my job was drafting. I have also had the pleasure of working for an Engineer that was willing to teach me more of the engineering as well as take on more of the responsibilities. He was great. The first thing to remember here is that the Drafter will always be a drafter unless he/she can commit to going after the P.E.. Drafters, as I have seen it, have no higher position to aspire to. This tends to build in some frustration over time. In my experiences, I was allowed to take on related design tasks that help the project while they DO NOT involve liability for the engineer. Let's face it, in Structural Engineering, if there is a mistake in the calculations, somebody is going to die (well, maybe not THAT drastic). In Mechanical enginneering, a room may be too hot or too cold - both are fixable.
As far as classes go, check out your local universities to see if they offer any "Adult Ed" classes that would help cover a few of the design areas. Usually, I have found them to be hard to get. Another avenue could be for the drafter to take a look at computer courses that would teach them about writing computer programs (like Autolisp, VBA, etc.) that could then be coupled with some learning from an engineer to create a program that will help draft AND provide some automated drafting services. I have tried this with a simple beam design. My program will size the beam based on selected points in the drawing and entered loads to draw a beam, label it, and create a text file with all the calculations in it that I can print and give to the engineer for review/records. Another option would be to teach small aspects of design (such as spread footings) during the project that requires these. This would require you (assuming that you are the engineer) to take the time to teach as the project allows. Over time, your drafter will be able to grasp more of each project which will make them better and save you time. The drafter will feel better about the project and "going the extra mile" as well.
Hope this helps,
Paul
Gee JOEMARCH,
You've really got me going on this one. I would just like to add a couple of more suggestions that I have thought of.
1. One of the biggest problems that I have had to deal with is all the other disciplines on a project. NONE of the other trades seem to bother with coordination until it has become a crisis in the field. I would suggest that creating a good designer from a drafter would involve putting the drafter in charge of coordinating with the other trades. For example, have them find out where the Mech. Eng. wants the frames for the rooftop units. Or, where will the braces be required for special plumbing fixtures.
2. Take the drafter out into the field during inspections. This will help twofold. First, they can be a second set of eyes to find problems with the construction. Second, you can have the drafter take responsibility for creating field reports. Also, seeing the design in the field helps the drafter to improve details and designs on the next job in the office. It will also help them to see the "Big Picture" of how all the great structural stuff fits together with all the other trades.
3. Have the drafter help with some associated design - for example, teach them to layout footing drains. This works great to get them involved as well as coordinating with the Civil Engineer.
4. Have the drafter start to learn to review shop drawings. You could even have them get involved with writing specs.
Sorry for getting into this too much,
Paul
You've really got me going on this one. I would just like to add a couple of more suggestions that I have thought of.
1. One of the biggest problems that I have had to deal with is all the other disciplines on a project. NONE of the other trades seem to bother with coordination until it has become a crisis in the field. I would suggest that creating a good designer from a drafter would involve putting the drafter in charge of coordinating with the other trades. For example, have them find out where the Mech. Eng. wants the frames for the rooftop units. Or, where will the braces be required for special plumbing fixtures.
2. Take the drafter out into the field during inspections. This will help twofold. First, they can be a second set of eyes to find problems with the construction. Second, you can have the drafter take responsibility for creating field reports. Also, seeing the design in the field helps the drafter to improve details and designs on the next job in the office. It will also help them to see the "Big Picture" of how all the great structural stuff fits together with all the other trades.
3. Have the drafter help with some associated design - for example, teach them to layout footing drains. This works great to get them involved as well as coordinating with the Civil Engineer.
4. Have the drafter start to learn to review shop drawings. You could even have them get involved with writing specs.
Sorry for getting into this too much,
Paul
GregLocock
Automotive
"Let's face it, in Structural Engineering, if there is a mistake in the calculations, somebody is going to die (well, maybe not THAT drastic). In Mechanical enginneering, a room may be too hot or too cold - both are fixable."
Un huh. Now, I am a mechanical engineer. 25% of my time is spent modelling, and signing off, the limit handling and rollover characteristics of SUVs. Would you like to rephrase your statement?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Un huh. Now, I am a mechanical engineer. 25% of my time is spent modelling, and signing off, the limit handling and rollover characteristics of SUVs. Would you like to rephrase your statement?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Greg brings up a very good point. Depending upon the application, ALL engineering disciplines are critical for success. Come to think of it, I could probably leave out the "Depending upon the application" qualifier.
As a CAD drafter/detailer or whatever title is given. Primary importance is to capture and convey design intent in some sort of "standardized" format. Try to learn various standards. Every engineer has their own style of working with drafters and detailers so expect variety in the amount of technical "independence" you will have.
Listen and learn from the needs of the people actually using the drawings. After all, they are your true customer.
Regards,
As a CAD drafter/detailer or whatever title is given. Primary importance is to capture and convey design intent in some sort of "standardized" format. Try to learn various standards. Every engineer has their own style of working with drafters and detailers so expect variety in the amount of technical "independence" you will have.
Listen and learn from the needs of the people actually using the drawings. After all, they are your true customer.
Regards,
Greg,
Perhaps you're right... with SUV's. As far as HVAC Mech. Engineering goes, my statement still stands. But, even in your Automotive area of design, a person that is interested in becoming more educated and involved with design could find some aspects to learn and offer assistance with. Perhaps designing the correct brackets or mounting so that the front cross-bar suspension isn't directly under the oil filter.
PSE,
I agree that all disciplines are critical to success but, you seem to be advocating the good old-fashioned "us" and "them" attitude within the engineering community. I believe that a good designer is much more valuable than simple drafting tasks and can provide some excellent crosschecking as well as coordinating functions to assure success throughout the project.
Just my thoughts...
Perhaps you're right... with SUV's. As far as HVAC Mech. Engineering goes, my statement still stands. But, even in your Automotive area of design, a person that is interested in becoming more educated and involved with design could find some aspects to learn and offer assistance with. Perhaps designing the correct brackets or mounting so that the front cross-bar suspension isn't directly under the oil filter.
PSE,
I agree that all disciplines are critical to success but, you seem to be advocating the good old-fashioned "us" and "them" attitude within the engineering community. I believe that a good designer is much more valuable than simple drafting tasks and can provide some excellent crosschecking as well as coordinating functions to assure success throughout the project.
Just my thoughts...
GregLocock
Automotive
PLB - You are talking rubbish.
You claimed an ME's mistakes would result in someone being too hot or too cold. I offered a real example where my (an ME's) mistakes will result in (quite significant numbers of) people being dead.
Restricting an ME's role to HVAC is like saying that an SE can design kerbstones without killing anyone.
I repeat and expand: recant, rephrase or justify your statement. You have failed so far, in my opinion.
You claimed an ME's mistakes would result in someone being too hot or too cold. I offered a real example where my (an ME's) mistakes will result in (quite significant numbers of) people being dead.
Restricting an ME's role to HVAC is like saying that an SE can design kerbstones without killing anyone.
I repeat and expand: recant, rephrase or justify your statement. You have failed so far, in my opinion.
Hi Greg,
Apparently you are getting WAY too heated about what I said. First of all, I DID NOT limit ANYONE's capabilities OR responsibilities. Mechanical engineers can do whatever they want. Generally, most Structural Engineers are involved in the buildings trade. You know, designing buildings. Therefore, with that in mind, the Mechanical Engineers involved would tend (but NOT be limited to) designing HVAC systems to work in those buildings. Hence the "too hot or too cold" statement.
All I am trying to do is offer some suggestions for JOEMARCH to consider that may help create a better sense of involvement and satisfaction for the drafter that works with him. Please try to understand my point without getting knotted-up on technicalities.
I may have failed in your opinion, only because of accidentally offending you, but, I think that I have offered some good solutions... simply because these very ideas have worked (read NOT FAILED) for me and the SE that I worked for.
Apparently you are getting WAY too heated about what I said. First of all, I DID NOT limit ANYONE's capabilities OR responsibilities. Mechanical engineers can do whatever they want. Generally, most Structural Engineers are involved in the buildings trade. You know, designing buildings. Therefore, with that in mind, the Mechanical Engineers involved would tend (but NOT be limited to) designing HVAC systems to work in those buildings. Hence the "too hot or too cold" statement.
All I am trying to do is offer some suggestions for JOEMARCH to consider that may help create a better sense of involvement and satisfaction for the drafter that works with him. Please try to understand my point without getting knotted-up on technicalities.
I may have failed in your opinion, only because of accidentally offending you, but, I think that I have offered some good solutions... simply because these very ideas have worked (read NOT FAILED) for me and the SE that I worked for.
PLB
For the record, I do not advocate an "us" vs "them" attitude within engineering. Everyone simply has different styles of working accommodation of style must be considered. I have worked with numerous designers/drafters/detailers and have learned from them and they have learned from me.
There will remain a difference between the drafter and the engineer. The engineer signs off on the drawing and they are the one called to stand up when the feces hit the rotating oscillator.
Regards,
For the record, I do not advocate an "us" vs "them" attitude within engineering. Everyone simply has different styles of working accommodation of style must be considered. I have worked with numerous designers/drafters/detailers and have learned from them and they have learned from me.
There will remain a difference between the drafter and the engineer. The engineer signs off on the drawing and they are the one called to stand up when the feces hit the rotating oscillator.
Regards,
PSE,
You said:
"There will remain a difference between the drafter and the engineer. The engineer signs off on the drawing and they are the one called to stand up when the feces hit the rotating oscillator."
An excellent point. I agree whole-heartedly, that is why I have been suggesting that the Designer could be more involved with associated work like coordinating, footing drains, even some limited beam and footing design that WOULD NOT endanger the engineer or the project but would help both.
Paul
You said:
"There will remain a difference between the drafter and the engineer. The engineer signs off on the drawing and they are the one called to stand up when the feces hit the rotating oscillator."
An excellent point. I agree whole-heartedly, that is why I have been suggesting that the Designer could be more involved with associated work like coordinating, footing drains, even some limited beam and footing design that WOULD NOT endanger the engineer or the project but would help both.
Paul
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