Returning to a former employer 2

[Gstoner]

I have a situation that I have not encountered before. I received a call last week from a former supervisor (whom I am using as a reference while job hunting) to see if I was interested in returning to work for a former employer. Now, I figure that if the owner (small company, 15-20) asks the supervisor to call me, then the ball may not be in my court, but it sure is headed in my direction at least.

Before I left, I had a loooong exit interview with my supervisor, telling him everything. Some may agree with the exit interview, some not. Regardless, I had 'assumed' that I had burned a bridge (most of reasons for leaving were due to personality conflicts with the owner) and so was quite surprised to get a phone call about returning. I will admit that leaving there in the first place was definitely a "grass is greener..." situation...which I have found to be spray painted concrete. *sigh* I have also thought for quite a while that most of the conflicts could have been worked out, but I have never wanted to jeopardize my position at any job by "barking back", so I would look for a new job...then leave.

So, as a summary, I would LOVE to return, but need to discuss a few items with the owner.

1. conflict resolution (ask him, while he's in a good mood, how I should handle future clashes / differences with him)
2. I really can't take a pay / benefits cut, but I really enjoyed the work I was doing when I was there (and can't stand what I'm doing now)

Questions:
Is money or happiness more important? just opinions, I know every situation is different, just looking for a general consensus.

What other issues have any of you ever had when you have returned to a former employer? I've never returned to a former employer, so this is new ground for me.





"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away" - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

 

[spongebob007]

I would only return to a former employer under a few conditions:

1) A sufficient amount of time has passed since I left, say at least three years.

2) The company was large enough/I was away long enough that I would be doing something different or unlikely to be working with the same people I did the first time around.

3) If I left because of a certain person(s), I would want to know that either they left the company or I would be in a position to not have to deal with them. For example I left my last job primarily because the VP of Engineering was a total douchebag. If I heard he moved on or I was applying for a job in a different department, AND they were willing to pay me what I wanted, I would go back there in a second.

The problem is that loyalty is a one way street. Employers expect 110% loyalty of their employees, and once you leave or even hint at leaving, you are already seen as not being a team player. I would not want to return to a very small company shortly after leaving and have to live with the stigma of being looked at as not a team player.

 

[GregLocock]

BTDT. Worked out really well, both sides knew what they were getting into. Big pay rise didn't hurt either.

You know what to expect. Since you have had a bit of time off from each other talk to the owner and develop a plan about how /you/ are going to resolve this headbutting game. Cos /he/ isn't going to.



Cheers

Greg Locock

I rarely exceed 1.79 x 10^12 furlongs per fortnight

 

[MikeHalloran]

[
Laid off in a business downturn. Eleven months later, the boss begged me to come back, offering "anything but money", because business wasn't _that_ much better. ... and he was facing a lawsuit over a mistake that I would likely have caught.

I couldn't think of anything else, so I asked for deferred compensation, i.e., money, later. Here in The Colonies, the IRS has odd rules about it. Basically, if there's a _contract_ involving compensation at some time in the future, even an unspecified time, you have to pay income tax, on all of it, now. There has to be 'a substantial risk of forfeiture'.

Not having anything else anyway, I went back to work, after extracting a handshake from the boss.
Coupla years later, another downturn, I was out again. ... at which point, I asked for my deferred compensation.

In response, the boss admitted discussing it, but denied having made an agreement. There are no witnesses to the handshake. There is a witness to the conversation, but he claims to not remember any of it, even after he too was laid off.

So I got another job, another year went by, and the boss's personal secretary called, and didn't quite offer a job.

I didn't quite decline an offer that wasn't quite made, and I was working anyway. I like the guy, but I can't trust him.


The story's not over. The boss is back in court, and called personally to ask me to be an expert witness in a patent matter. So I sent him a bill, with interest, just as a friendly reminder. No response so far, none seriously expected.
]


Go back if and only if:
- You can find a way to tolerate conflict as interaction. Your wife probably knows better than you do.
AND
- You get substantially more money.

Don't accept _promises_ of money. ;-)


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[IRstuff]

Same, BTDT, but situation was radically different. In my case, the company was something like 40,000 employees, and 15 yrs removed, so no personal ties, no history. Our group was then sold to another company, but no complaints, been ther 12 yrs now. If I include the previous employment, it's a total of 15+ yrs.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[davidinindy]

I got downsiized as a result of the economy from a job I loved working with great people 5 minutes from home. I know it wasn't anything personal, and if things picked up, I would probably go back. I'd probably ask for more $$$ if they were the ones to call me.

David

 

[Gstoner]

Here's the update (meeting was last night)

We talked about the conflict issues. Quite a lot was discussed, to the point that I would be very happy to return. He said a few things had changed (design meetings, more than owner input, etc.) which, funny enough, are the same things that annoyed me the first time (that they were not happening) Talked about all the new work coming in, what I would be doing, etc. Custom machinery business is very good, it seems. They had talked about hiring a 3rd designer earlier (Sept), but now one of the 2 they have is being promoted to shop foreman, so as of Jan they'll be at one designer. So, no danger of layoffs or downturns...

Owner stated that he asked how the other employees would feel about my possible return and they were all enthusiastic about it. Frankly, that made my day. I know all of them and remember how they reacted to someone else returning while I was previously working there, so it wasn't simply a "ploy" or anything of the sort.

So, everything is good, right?

Nope. Turns out that he wants to offer less than I'm making now. About $4/hr less for 6 months, then a 'raise' to $1/hr less than now. My wife and I crunched some numbers, and looked at the happiness / paycheck ratio...and I just can't afford to go lower than $0.50/hr less than now (new company pays all medical, so it works out) Technically speaking, if I take the pay I was making 2 years ago, then add a 2.5% 'cost of living increase' every year since, then I would be at my present pay. I can understand his point of view, but...

So, now I get to call him this morning and tell him that I can't accept the job for a starting pay any less than 50 cents/hour MORE than he wants to go to after a 'trial' period. *sigh* I really have no idea if he would be willing to go that much higher than his intial offer, but I'll find out.

On the other side, I do appreciate everyone's comments / suggestions. They were very helpful in getting my head in the right place to prepare for the interview / meeting.

I'll post another update after the phone call *que the daytime soap opera music...*

"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away" - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

 

[MikeHalloran]

You need to ask for a LOT more money.

He called you.

You _have_ a job. He doesn't have to know you hate it.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[SNORGY]

Where I am at, a good rule of thumb that has always worked for me is that if the raise in pay is less than 10%, the move usually isn't worth making. I have done a couple of "salary straight across" moves, and I ended up being just as disappointed, trading one set of frustrations for another. (Hence recently returning to former employer; but even that move came with an upwards adjustment in pay.)

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[MadMango]

As I posted before, "Have it in your mind of what it will take for you to return and don't deviate." That should have been a clue to calculate your present pay with a 10-20% increase for experience/skills that you have gained in the past 2yrs.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[KENAT]

If you've worked there before why do they need a trial period as such. I could just about see maybe a retention bonus of some kind to make sure you don't jump ship but a trial period?

Seems you're being more sensible about the 'happiness' V 'able to pay the bills' debate than some seem to suggest which I'm pleased to see.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[PatCouture]

"Talked about all the new work coming in, what I would be doing, etc. Custom machinery business is very good, it seems. They had talked about hiring a 3rd designer earlier (Sept), but now one of the 2 they have is being promoted to shop foreman, so as of Jan they'll be at one designer."

Please make sure they are not offering you a job because they are desperate. I've seen a situation were a Designer left so there was a big hole in the department to get the work out the door. For them the practical solution was hiring another designer who left previously just because he was trained and will get up to speed quickly. Instead of hiring someone new that they can't trust with big project for some time.

If it's the same situation then you have all the rights to ask for a big raise. Don't forget YOU are making them a favor by going back not the other way around. As other have said THEY called you!

Patrick

 

[vc66]

Man, would I take them for everything that I could.

They were looking to hire a 3rd designer, but now they only have one? Therefore, they have plenty of money to hire you at whatever you feel you're worth. If they don't agree--walk away.

V

 

[Waidesworld]

When they want you back, you should definitely ask them to pony up the extra cash. If they are squabbling over $0.50/hour...it's really not worth it. What does that work out to over a year....$1040/year.

Add in an extra 9K a year and then talk to him.

drawn to design, designed to draw

 

[ewh]

Also BTDT, and I have to agree with the others. You currently have a job. They came to you. They have a serious lack of skilled personel. You are a known quantity to them, so no trial period should be necessary.
You should be able to get more than you are asking for, and they are not in a position to offer you less than what you currently make.
If you were unemployed, they would have more of an upper hand. You aren't so they don't.
As has been pointed out, the grass is greener on the other side until you get there, look down and see the fertilizer.


"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[Gstoner]

Latest update:
They agreed to the extra money

So, I wont be LOSING money, but the extra I was making will be gone. However, as my wife (and kids) put it, "You mean you'll come home HAPYY?!? Yeah!!!"

To me, that's worth it

Anyway, thanks to all for your suggestions! This is exactly why I needed the Engineering viewpoint. Thank you.

"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away" - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

 

[davidinindy]

Glad you're happy, but you'd have come home even happier if you'd gotten an extra 10k/year out of them...
Sounds like they were in a corner.
The least they could've said is "No.

David

 

[MadMango]

It looks like things worked out for you. When you return, don't get caught up in the feeling that they did you a favor for taking you back, don't feel indebted to them for your employment. I'm sure you have learned something in the two years you were with another company, try to bring the good things you saw with you.

As the saying goes, "Money can't buy you happiness, but it sure can put a smile on your face in the meantime."

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[Ron]

Gstoner...things change in companies. Sometimes less so for small, singly owned companies, but nonetheless, circumstances might have changed. Take a hard look, but give it a chance.

I've done it, albeit for a much larger company. I was gone for 6 years, came back under much better conditions and stayed for 12 years...then just tired of corporate crap and decided it wasn't right for me. One friend has been with that same company for 35 years, so it's right for some...not so much for others.

If you have issues with the owner, then put them out there. You have nothing to lose at this point and you might reach a "meeting of the minds". Further, he/she might appreciate your candor and consider that a point of integrity that is valuable to his/her company.

Good luck.

 

[HSNIC]

You'd be surprised at how people change. Maybe the owner sat down by himself and made a realization. It could just be him personally.

For just being there 2.5 years, you must have made some impact. Seems like you made the right choice. Good luck