Revisting the Fire in Sprinklered Texas Warehouse with High Piled Storage disaster. 9

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Remember this thread from 2012 having having to do with the Grand Prairie, Texas warehouse fire?

Looking at a possible project where the building height is 45' and storage of aluminum cans to 40' and from what I have heard the storage matches exactly what was in the Grand Prairie warehouse including the slip plastic sheets separating layers of cans.

I remember Scott's presentation (no longer available) where he pointed out the slip plastic ("slip plastic" is a term used by the owner) liquefied into a combustible liquid something not pointed out in the Fire Engineering article.

So everyone knows the design criteria will be coming from the insurance company that is not FM. I wouldn't touch fixing the design criteria with a ten foot pole myself but I am curious as to what it might be given the commodity and heights.

I can't find anything that would fit in NFPA #13 2013 and I can't find it in any special head listings either but I haven't reviewed all of them yet.

Anyone have experience with this?

 

[LCREP]

Stookey

I do not know if you have looked at the sections below from NFPA 13, 2011 ED. This may have some influence on the final commodity determination when plastic pallets are involved.

Based on some conversations with committee members of 13 future editions will look more like FM 8-9. No more storage height, clearance, tell me the height of the building here is your design. CMDA will be gone, everything will be K factor, psi at the head and number of heads flowing.

5.6.2.2* Unreinforced Plastic Pallets. For Class I through Class IV commodities, when unreinforced polypropylene or unreinforced high-density polyethylene plastic pallets are used, the classification of the commodity unit shall be in- creased one class.
5.6.2.2.1 Unreinforced polypropylene or unreinforced high- density polyethylene plastic pallets shall be marked with a per- manent symbol to indicate that the pallet is unreinforced.
5.6.2.3* For Class I through Class IV commodities, when rein- forced polypropylene or reinforced high-density polyethylene plastic pallets are used, the classification of the commodity unit shall be increased two classes except for Class IV commodity, which shall be increased to a cartoned unexpanded Group A plastic commodity.
5.6.2.3.1 Pallets shall be assumed to be reinforced if no permanent marking or manufacturer’s certification of non- reinforcement is provided.

Sprinkler 2

Been doing this since 1979 and yea it used to be so much easier. Remember initial and secondary design areas when dealing with plastics? How about 1/2" or maybe 17/32 heads, that was it. Now we have so many special application sprinklers, heck sometime you have to really look at the head to figure if it is upright or pendent sprinkler.

Regarding what you are hearing or lack of info. from insurance companies, blame it on our lawyers, they do not want us to provide any details. Put your design on paper and we will let you know if it meets with our underwriting standards. I can call you and talk about what I think, you want it in writing, all I can say is design to NFPA 13 nothing more.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Stookey,

"My position is that NFPA 13 needs to establish a minimum requirement for speculation warehouses,"

I wouldn't limit a minimum to speculation warehouses. Very few, if any, warehouses I designed 35 years ago are still used to store the same commodity. At a minimum I would drop class I through class III keeping class IV only. And yes, an argument can certainly be made to get rid of the class IV as well but doing that would cause nearly all warehouses to have fire pumps.

 

[Duwe6]

S-D2 personal aside "oldest one I have is of the Pell City Mfg. Co."

Not too long ago, I lived in St. Claire Co AL, with Pell City as the county seat. Been by that mill many times. Would it be possible to get a copy of that drawing? Old drawings made by old draftsmen were indeed artworks. I have $$.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Duwe6, I have attempted to get scans made but so far nobody will touch it because it's sort of brittle with age.

If I can get it done I'll post a link so anyone can see it.

 

[cdafd]

Not as good as a scan, but good picture and email it

 

[pclibrary]

As a resident of Pell City would love to be able to see the entire image...........a scan, copy, image or link
to the entire image would be great....................thanks

 

[rconner]

Fascinating thread. And small world, I happened to visit a friend's place in Pell City last weekend (Mays Bend area)! Am curious SD2, where was this old mill?

 

[cdafd]

maybe:::


However, it was revived in 1902 when Sumter Cogswell built the Pell City Manufacturing Company, which subsequently became Avondale Mills, a major landmark of the town until Thunder Enterprises, a Tennessee company, bought the building and began dismantling the factory in 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pell_City,_Alabama

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMDC2E_Avondale_Mills_Chimney_Pell_City_AL

http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=49660

 

[pclibrary]

The Mill burned a few years ago, but the smokestack is still standing. It is located in the center of Pell City alongside Highway 231. The Mill Office is also still standing. If you are in Pell City from time to time; it is across the street from CVS.

Hope this helps as to the location.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

It burned? How could this happen, the building was fully sprinkled!

For nearly 100 years the drawing I have was framed and located in the facility boiler house. When the plant burned down a contractor was hired to cart the debris away and one of the items he salvaged, without knowing what it really was, was the colored original framed drawing I have.

When I saw it it wasn't for sale but I knew I had to have it. As my offered price went up so did my wife's blood pressure but I had to have it! It had two fire pumps, full yard system, the Grinnell glass sprinklers, 600,000 gallon cistern, hydrants and post indicator valves galore. It has what appears to be two engineers seals but they are insurance company seals... maybe 108 years ago professional engineers weren't considered a necessity?

I would like to get it scanned but I don't want to risk taking it off the frame or running it through a scanner.

I'll get a good camera, something better than my camera phone.

 

[rconner]

Thanks, folks (I drove right by there - Avondale Mills was of course well known and an important business in the area).