Ross Perot a prophet? 3

[rhodie]

See article:

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/06/23/alcaruba.htm

(Hopefully the comments in this thread will prove to be less volatile and more relevant.)

 

[EnglishMuffin]

When I hear powerful people in high places in government saying things like "thank goodness we are moving away from a manufacturing economy" - "we need to move to a service economy" etc - I just despair. There are government schemes to re-train people in service jobs who are laid off because their jobs have moved off shore. It's all quite intentional. The penny will drop, (I estimate about ten years time) but by then it will be too late.

 

[PSE]

Look on the "bright" side, once the US economy completely collapses we will become a third world country and a source of cheap labor for others. Hmm, no emoticon available for sarcasm .

"No man's life liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session." - Jacquin's Postulate

 

[rhodie]

This problem of free trade is a pretty big concern of mine. I find myself thinking, planning, and reading about it quite a bit.

I really don't know how to "become part of the solution", as I see that there are some entities whose desire remains to keep this issue as far removed fromt he public eye as possible.

I have written my state legislators about this issue. I have written letters to the President. I have writtten letters to some of the Fortune 750 CEOs, explaining that I refuse to buy their product as a result of off-shoring labor.

I am very selective with respect to country of origin when making purchases, but sometimes I have no choice but to buy imported. Sometimes I pay 5-10 times as much for domestic goods, and the product quality is poorer than the alternative. This is the most disappointing facet of all.


I don't know what else I can do. The issue is just not scandalizing enough for mass media coverage (yet), so it goes ignored by millions. I hate to get into a Y2K syndrome, i.e. preparing for the worst by stocking up on certain items that may prove unaffordable* in the near future, but it is beginning to seem necessary.

(*Being a diabetic, I dread to think what will happen to me the day that I cannot afford insulin.)

Anyone have any ideas of how to fix the problem? My ears (er.. eyes) are open...

 

[chubPE]

I see the NAFTA article more a trade issue and not an engineering/manufacturing issue.

 

[rhodie]

chubPE

Explain to me how NAFTA, trade and Manufacturing are unrelated issues, especially when considered in a "Trends" forum...

 

[PSE]

rhodie,

It seems you are already part of the solution. You are participating in the political process and you are deciding as best you can where your money goes. Aside from the Craftsman hand tools in my garage and food bought from local growers, I would be hard pressed to identify anything else produced domestically (US). My vehicle is considered a domestic product simply because it has >50% "domestic content"

I do not think NAFTA is an appropriate acronym because trade is not "free". I think that this is especially true when there is a disparity between living standards between trade "partners".

 

[chubPE]

rhodie,
I wrote "I see the NAFTA article" not "I see NAFTA."

The article briefly mentioned manufacturing going overseas, as I remember it, I can't access the link anymore.

NAFTA is Canada and Mexico not overseas.

I see the NAFTA article a trade discussion with Mexico and Canada. Thats the way I see it. I didn't see it as North America Free Manufaturing Agreement. I don't see many things with "Made in Mexico" on them. I know there are a lot of firms moving there, probably as a result of NAFTA in some way.
The article you posted was good, but I didn't get what you got out of it, sorry.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

I know one thing - I don't see a lot of things with "made in USA" on them any more. When you do see it in advertisements. , there is usually an exclamation point after it, or at least the implication of one.

 

[ProEpro]

I bought a door the other day that had a rough image resembling a flag with stripes and a field in the upper left hand corner. Below it where the words:

MADE IN NORTH AMERICA

PSE be carefull Craftsmen doesn't automaticly mean made in amercia any more.



ProEpro

http://www.whitelightdesign.com

 

[EnglishMuffin]

What worries me is this. When the USA began, it had the advantages of unrivalled geographical and natural resources. It had a growing population with a diverse gene pool to make use of them. Then a manufacturing economy developed to support all this. And then various service industries evolved to support the manufacturing economy and its industrial base, and then a world class R & D and academia was able to emerge, supported by everything else. And now the manufacturing economy is being dismantled, and people in high places say "well, we don't need that, we've got aerospace and world class universities etc etc, we'll do the advanced engineering here, and all the nuts and bolts manufacturing will be done off shore". But we all know what that will lead to eventually. If you pull out a link in the chain, everything collapses. When you design a piece of machinery even now, at an early stage of the inevitable decline to come, you usually cannot build it without Japanese and German components - and when its finished, 95% of the technology of the machine is in those components. America's industrial base is disappearing, little by little, year by year. Even a lot of aerospace manufacturing is done in Japan, Taiwan etc - its surprising how much - the general public would be amazed if they realized and it was written and talked about. All you hear about when this sort of thing is mentioned on a political level is the loss of jobs - which is undoubtedly serious - but the deepest problem is the loss of industrial base. I once read that Ludwig Prandtl had many of his scientific "Eureka" moments while walking around machine shops - not laboratories. I also think there should be more engineers in government. I remember hearing somewhere that 80% of the people in government in Singapore were engineers. Of course, someone is going to say that this isn't Singapore, but it will be before long if we don't watch it.

 

[BobPE]

kinda on the line of what ProEpro said, I bought Calphalon pots because they were made in Toledo Ohio as was stamped on the bottom of the pan. Well, I bought a set of 10 and on the smallest pan in the set, made in china was stamped in small letters on it. Knowing I was ripped off, I wrote the company. They dont need to clearly mark the product made in china, just a piece. This is stratigic marketing on their end, they know that people in the states are becoming import sensitive. I agree with englishmuffin that the media play is not there with this issue and people would be shocked to understand what is going on. Now I have no problem with manufacturing in china, it has to be done since that type of manufacturing has been regulated and unionized out of existance here in the USA, but I prefer to clearly understand that nation of origin to make my personal decision....Seeing companies be deceitful is where I think engineers play a role in educating people. Companies are seeing the power of the nation of origin and that is the tool we can use to tame nafta at the consumer level. I think NAFTA may be a good thing in the future, but like all political animals, they run wild in the beginning until they are domesticated. Engineers are the only ones that can tame NAFTA, and as usuall we are sitting on our hands, quietly watching our childrens future careers slip away....

I am learning spanish right now, I have read the writing on the wall a while ago....

BobPE

 

[EnglishMuffin]

You know, there's a funny thing that I don't quite understand. Although there are a lot of things like pots and pans etc that are made off shore, its also the case that when you do see something made in the USA, its quite often a relatively simple thing like a hammer - so somebody is managing to make a profit out of manufacturing in this country even now. But the complicated things nearly always seem to be made elsewhere - and not necessarily third world places, but Japan and Germany. I think one of the root causes has to do with this country's huge natural and agricultural resources. I originally came from the UK a long time ago, where they have been going down this same route for a bit longer than the USA. Things were getting to a really low ebb - and then they discovered North Sea Oil - and I remember someone saying at the time that this was the worst thing that could have happened, because now they would never have the incentive to straighten things out. Countries like Japan and Germany have virtually no natural resources, and have to rely on their balance of payments, so they have to succeed at manufacturing.. The US balance of payments (or trade gap) is terrible, but it doesn't really matter to us that much. Of course, its true that Japan and Germany farm things out elsewhere as well (Germany is using the ex-communist countries for example). But they will never go to the extreme that we will - they can't afford to.

 

[rhodie]

Germany is feeling the pinch more than the US:

http://www.expatica.com/germany.asp?pad=190,230,&item_id=32375

 

[TheTick]

One of the problems with Ross Perot's publicly held opinion against free trade is that he's privately slanted toward making money from restricted trade. The Perot family owns several free trade zones that stand to lose money in the face of expanded free trade that does not require a Perot-owned free trade zone.

Wanna see? Just go to Google or Yahoo! and search using keywords ross perot free trade zone

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

rhodie - I think my last line should have read "They realize they can't afford to".

 

[PSE]

The US problem (and likely an EU problem as well) is that our standard of living has evolved products outside the reach of less developed nations. Other nations find it difficult to offer anything in return other than an inexpensive labor force for foreign "investment". Free trade might be able to exist at an equitable or symbiotic level amongst countries of equivalent development. Amongst non-equitable partners, it is likely to become parasitic.

 

[rhodie]

EnglishMuffin

Your perspective is very enlightening. It makes me wonder if the US will stumble upon some kind of "bail-out" commodity (like North Sea Oil) anytime soon. I guess we might already have with the advent of the world wide web. (and now that cash-cow is dried up.)

From reading the article, it seems that an old East vs. West bias exists even in Germany today. I hope the Krauts can put aside the excessive holidays and labor union demands and remain a viable manufacturing economy. Otherwise, the precendent that is set for the US doesn't look good.

 

[EngineerDave]

How about this for Made in the USA. For my 4th of July celebration I went to a local department store and got some new patriotic shirts.

One t-shirt with the American flag was made in Mexico, but it said printed in the US!

The other was a polo shirt with the flag on it. It was made in Jordan! I can just imagine the people in the factory making that shirt!

 

[MrStohler]

I find this protectionism puzzling for a group of people who are taught to solve problems. If you cannot compete with foreign services or products why should consumers of these products be subsidize your inefficiency? I am better off and more able to support my family if I choose the products with the best value, regardless of their origin.

The US economy will not collapse nor will we become a second rate player in the world as some of the previous posts (see other threads in this forum) seem to indicate. Our political structure and recognition of property (both real and intellectual) rights provides a significant advantage over most of the world. Consider the economic gains the US has made over its history, surpassing over nations that were significantly more developed at the beginnings of the US. Also consider the vast natural resources available to African nations, but without a stable political climate and inconsistent recognition of property rights, many of these nations have had little relative advancement. An example of free and stable political systems benefiting the economy is evident in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Ukraine and other former Soviet block nations, while the "traditional" European nations have been stagnating with increased government intervention.

It is frequently not wise to support restrictions on trade. It is more important to ensure that our property rights are not eroded.

Bring on the competition!