RTsumT 3

[frv]

So after raving about my company on these very forums on more than one occasion, I was laid off last week.

My question, now, relates to my résumé.

I am older than most engineers who only have two years of experience, so I have accumulated a rather extensive non-engineering résumé that includes several managerial and supervisory positions. Positions where I was required to work as part of a team, yet was still responsible for the performance of others. Again, this is all in non-engineering positions.

I believe, however, that my experience with my former employer speaks for itself. I was fortunate to be able to do full structural designs, as well as other engineering related tasks, including failure investigations, blah, blah blah.

My question is: should I include my non-engineering experience in my résumé, given that my true engineering experience only dates back three years (including things I did before going into engineering full time)? Or will my relatively brief experience in real engineering suffice?

I would particularly like to hear from those of you in positions to hire. Would you give a horses behind about my non-engineering experience if it shows an ability to be a team player and to supervise the work of others?
I'm thinking not. I wouldn't. But then again, I wouldn't have laid myself off

 

[MikeHalloran]

A lot of engineering has nothing to do with what you learned in engineering school. As does much of the stuff a typical engineer learns in the first few years after school; stuff that you learned _before_ school.

Even if you don't want a management job, include your management experience; it suggests maturity and global perspective that are usually absent in new engineers.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[hokie66]

As an employer, I always wanted to know an applicant's full employment history, not just directly related experience. Good luck, frv.

 

[dgowans]

frv,

I'd list all your employment experience. Even if you're interviewing for a non-management position, the company might have enough foresight to be looking to hire someone who is promotable.

 

[Ron]

In most cases, all adult job experience applies. One of my associates had over 5 years of experience prior to going to engineering school. He has been practicing engineering about 10 years now, but his prior experience and maturity show through.

One suggestion...many resume reviewers (including myself) are very picky. In engineering, I view a resume as one's ability to concisely and accurately tell a story.

I look at the format (can the individual figure out how to use a basic word processing program?).

I look at spelling (is the individual detailed enough to pick up on his/her own mistakes?)

I look at grammar in the cover letter (can the individual express points in writing?)

I look at unexplained gaps in experience/work history.

I look for embellishment of work experience, education, and accomplishments (for example "I built I-295 around Jacksonville" when in fact, the individual was a flagman on a road crew)....I see this more than you might expect!

I check references and I check work history from others not stated as references.

Good luck!

 

[frv]

Thank for your replies.

Ron- you made me smile.. that was funny.

I am very good with the formatting/spelling/grammar aspects.

My problem is that I want to put as much specific information as possible about my former job, as I believe I probably had more design responsibilities than the typical engineer who just got out of college. And even summarizing that information, I'm still pushing a little bit over a page with that job and the other three part-time engineering jobs. I know it's frowned upon to go over a page, and if I include my prior experience, I'll be pushing two pages.

Suggestions?

 

[vc66]

I always have a "resume" for every employer I apply to. I tailor the resume with key skills I think that particular employer will be looking for, on the first page. I go into my work history on the second, and wherever it ends, it ends. I've never understood where the one page comes from--maybe it has to do with the reader's inability to care after one page. That's why I put all my pertinent skills on page one.

As to your original question, I would put all my relevant work experience, whether after graduating, or not. If it's relevant, it's relevant, regardless of when it happened.

V

 

[vc66]

Oh, and most importantly-- good luck. I hope you find yourself in a better position than before.

V

 

[Ron]

Don't worry about the "one-page" limit...don't make it too long, but the one-page thing isn't a big deal to me and to others who want to adequately evaluate an individual. Conversely, too much information is distracting and unnecessary, so attempt to strike a reasonable balance (another good evaluation trait!).

Also, some who review qualifications want to know some personal information. I want to know if you can represent yourself and my company in a positive light in a tough business environment. Unless the personal stuff shows you in a positive social atmosphere or depicts some element of responsibility on your part, don't include it. Similarly, political and religious affiliations are usually not good to divulge at this juncture.

 

[abusementpark]

"Similarly, political and religious affiliations are usually not good to divulge at this juncture."

I would say it is a good idea to never divulge those things in a workplace setting.

 

[zdas04]

When I worked for a major oil company, when a document went to the board or the executive-live VP's, if it couldn't be summarized to one page they wouldn't consider it.

Same with a CV. If I don't know enough about you at the end of page one to be interested I won't go to page 2. Some of the folks above have said that this is not important, and to them it may be true, but there are still a lot of folks like me out there who beleive that if you can't summarize you experience to one page then you don't understand what is important in your life.

Another hint, I got a resume the other day in native Microsoft Word. I opened it and the formatting characters were all that I saw (since it openend in "normal" mode instead of "print" mode). I closed it and deleted the e-mail. The guy called a week later and asked why he hadn't heard from me. I wasn't busy so I told him that I have no obligation to respond to unsolicited job requests and his package was so lame that he wouldn't have deserved a response to a solicited package. If you are sending your CV out over e-mail, put it in .pdf format so that you control the format instead of relying on the recepient's computer set up.

David

 

[frv]

I appreciate everybody's response.

It seems a majority of people agree that you can extend the résumé to a little more than a page.

zdas- that seems like a bit unreasonable and, no offense, a bit patronizing. However, I appreciate your input. I know you're giving a sincere opinion. I also know that there are many people who feel the same way you do. So I find myself in a conundrum.

But setting that conundrum aside, I have another question regarding what to put on a résumé.

I'm currently attending graduate school, specializing in structural engineering. This is my first semester, so in reality I only have about three weeks worth of grad school experience (not counting a class I took one year ago from which i had to withdraw for personal reasons).

Do you think I should include my grad school status?

My overriding goal is to get a job. If the company I end up working for allows me some flexibility in hours to continue grad school, great! But I don't want to turn off a potential employer because they think I'm not willing to work 40 hrs per week or they think I won't be available for another two years.

I know most reputable and worthwhile companies should encourage their employees to pursue more education. But I'm a pragmatist. Reputable or not, I need a job. I'll worry about the rest later.

Suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[Ron]

There's nothing wrong with being up front about that. Tell the potential employer that you are currently pursuing a graduate degree, but that employment takes precedence at this time and you are willing to delay that for now.

 

[TheTick]

First step is to get past screening. If hiring managers don't see what they want in the first 1/3 to 1/2 page, they move on.

I start with a "key skills" section, summarizing what I can do that an employer wants for a given position. If employer is still interested, they move on to work history and education.

All resumes should be position-specific. I never send a generic, boiler-plate resume. Each potential employer gets a resume that has at least been re-read to ensure that it says what I believe that particular employer needs to read.

 

[jpankask]

I agree with zdas...few people merit a resume over 1 page. Those who do are very experienced and usually very specialized. A well-written one page resume shows that you can concisely get your point across. If looking at a stack of 50 or more resumes and the one with the staple in it keeps messing up my stack, I'll be taking that one out of the stack. Also, on the first pass through the resumes, I'll be looking to weed out a bunch of them so that I can concentrate on the ones that seem to have good potential. You've got a short time to make a good impression. Make good use of it. Good luck with your search.

 

[cvg]

keep your resume short and concise and then elaborate on your recent or most important experience in your cover letter. Most resume reviewers have just a few minutes to look at a stack of resumes. Long resumes will not be fully read.

 

[HamishMcTavish]

For what it's worth - i would draw the line at two pages and if staples are an issue (as per jpanask) then print it double sided!

I kind of know where zdas is coming from re PDF files - i sent my CV (hard copy) out to a few agencies when i first started contracting, got a phone call one day from someone else in the agency...a few preliminaries then he got to the point "i was wondering why you didn't put your qualifications on your CV"...my answer was that of course i did. He sent me a copy of what he was reading - someone had decided to put it into their "corporate format" (small agency with big pretensions) and neglected them!

Re the original post, i would have said that ALL your experience is relevant - shows you as a "well rounded" personality and despite some negative conotations associated with management i think you would be selling yourself short if you didn't mention it. Key thing as someone else has said is to make sure it's relevant to the post you're applying for.

Best of luck and kind regards, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[HgTX]

There's a difference between "make yourself look worthwhile on the first page of the resume" and "don't make the resume longer than a page".

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[cksh]

I have been told numerous times that two page resumes are acceptable, but I cannot bring myself to do it. I would try to keep it to one page.

For your most recent job, where you had lots of responsibilities, try to limit what you write without limiting what you say. Does that make sense? Most employers might lose patience reading a book.

And I agree about tailoring your resume. A headhunter is going to look for key words (HR probably will too since they may or may not have a tech background). Some might want more specifics.

You might want to consider only going back ten years on your resume if space is an issue. Sometimes I do this because I average a new job every two years. 8 jobs in 15 years so my resume can get busy. I have to balance out how much detail to go into vs. how much engineering xp vs. my job hopping status. Tailoring it is the way to go.

I always put my school xp, major, and future graduating date when I was still in school.

I have been in engineering for 15 years but have only had my BS for 4. What really used to get me angy was that they would only go back to when I graduated, and say that was how much xp I had. Forget the other 10 years

 

[KENAT]

Even thinking about resumes drives me mad.

"Only one page" V "give examples of what you've achieved rather than just listing skills", this takes me almost a page for one job.

"Use formatting to make your resume look professional" V “Please sent your resume in plain text…”

I’ve used the key skills section like Tick and think it’s useful, I also start with an introduction – about a 4-5 line summary of what the rest of my resume says.

When I got this job my opening line started “Hard working Design Engineer…” the “Hard working” got my now boss’s attention and hence phone interview, hence interview, hence job. However, when recently I had my sister-in-law who has prepared Resumes and the like for a living look at mine, this was one of the first things she changed.

As to the specific question on the OP I currently have a Rite Aid (Sales Associate/Supervisor) position on my resume, but just list it and dates, no details. I sometimes get to review resumes, though they’ve usually been screened before they get to me, and would be fine with this.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?