I would have no problem with engineering jobs being outsourced if they would outsource executive jobs as well. Do we really need to pay a CEO $200,000,000 a year if there is a cheaper executive a company could hire in China for $200,000? An outsourced executive couldn't be any less competent given the fiasco US businesses have experienced lately. Then, maybe with the savings US companies could afford some capital improvement and modernization.
But in reality, the outsourcing is one sided. It's the jobs of the people at the bottom being outsourced.
I know of the Ford CEO but he did not last long. any other senior director was only given a job just to facilitate some sort of takeover. Many australian co were bought lately by US firms. By the way a special visa is available for Australians only to work in US if they wish and has nothing to do with H1B
i believe is called E3 but not sure......i guess is for the "effort" in Iraq...
My word "island" was a (wasted) euphamism for "colonial power". It's fine and dandy to leave one's own island and conquer the funny foreigners, maybe even invite a few back to do menial work. But to have them arrive uninvited and do real work is just not cricket!
It's only a few years since the US placed illegal (in the view of the WTO) import duties on foreign steel to protect US steelworkers jobs.
I actually had to re-read opsops' last post because I thouight it said "...only difference is when country C comes in the country A to takeover...". Guess the identity of Country C in this example?
I love how they titled this the 'relief' worker act, as if it actually benefits workers. After all, who wouldn't vote for a bill with such a rosey title? It is amazing how poorly our government represents its own people as to go so far to do something like this. I hate Washington DC. Criminals...all of them, and sneaky ones at that.
What sickens me more is the significant public support for this bill. Rather than train more US students to work in technology, let's just import them. Why are engineers being so passive about this!?!?! Despite an abundance of engineers they attempt a bill like this. Yet we don't see them doing this in medicine, a field in which there IS a shortage of doctors and nurses. Salaries are finally becoming competitive in engineering so what do they do?... find a way to turn this into another ~35k/yr job.
Everyone thinks that this bill will bring technological talent back to our country, but all it will do is destroy the talent that was already here.
There is a solution to the both parties screwing you, you vote for a third party.
This is not a wasted vote. In Australia recently it has been the independents that have held the balance of power (i.e. they were needed by either party for a majority vote) and they were able to trade their vote for other bills being passed or get it ammended to their requirements.
Good point about the doctors and nurses, now those are professions that have got their hands tightly on the reins.
opsops3,
I believe the CEO of MacDonalds is an Australian also.
To all those migrant naysayers,
Welcome to the global economy!
There is actually a global shortage of engineers across the globe. You can get a job almost anywhere in the world (I have moved countries twice and never been looking for work more than 2 weeks.) One of the hardest countries to get into is the USA.
When Americas economy collapses, you will be glad that countries let foreign professionals in to work. I did intend to say when, not if. I bet the romans though their little empire would last forever, so did the british.
csd72: what evidence do you have, aside from your own anecdotal experience with finding a job, that there is a global shortage of engineers?
There certainly is no shortage of engineers in Canada, and I have the statistics to prove that conclusively. That said, there ARE indeed regional shortages, and shortages at certain levels of experience or in certain fields. When you analyze these shortages, you invariably find that these correspond to years when the marketplace wasn't hiring engineers, or fields which previously were in a protracted "bust" cycle which later recovered. Tough to find engineers with ~10 years experience when the market wasn't HIRING fresh grads 10 years ago! And the Canadian experience has shown that even immigration at ENORMOUS levels- almost twice the number immigrating to Canada per year as the entire output of all of our accredited universities- cannot make this sort of problem go away completely.
I think I can safely venture that THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS: rather, there's a lack of willingness of firms to pay engineers what they're really worth, to hire them early in their careers and train them etc. Businesses will do these things only when market conditions force them to do so, and they don't like being forced to spend money. So they spend a smaller amount of money on media via their lobby groups to promote the myth of shortage. It's proven to be money very well spent on their part, as governments have proven time and again their willingness to respond by turning on the supply taps. And nobody in our prima donna profession is standing by to close them again when the market overflows...
the root cause is this: on a dollar to dollar basis/comparison and accomodating the exchange rate: the US engineers( in general) make more that everybody else (except maybe Japan). In addition the cost of living is apparently lower ( again on general basis). That suggest that the net income in US is better than everywhere else.
If this is actually true or valid for everybody is an individual matter.
I also agree that there is a surplus of engineers world wide. many underemployed or underpaid or working in non related occupations.
Dollar-for-dollar most engineers in Western Europe make a similar amount to their US counterparts at current exchange rates, perhaps a little higher in some cases, perhaps a little lower in others, but generally not too far different. The cost of living in the US is definitely lower on average than in Western Europe and that makes a big perceived difference to the standard of life to which that salary equates.
My company used to use a formula for US salaries of Brit employees on secondment. Multiply pounds by 2.5 and that's it in dollars. Not bad 10 years ago when the exchange rate was 1.5-1.6. Especially since anything you might want to buy cost the same in dollars (numerically) as in pounds (except for cars, where the number was less!). I put the discepancy down to the fact that the things a young(ish) bloke needs aren't generally the things that cost an arm and a leg over there (College fees, healthcare, private schooling).
I don't think we're worried about Europeans flocking to the U.S. as a result of this. We're worried about every person in India, China, Korea, and the Middle East simultaneously applying for the soon to be 195,000 work permits as permitted by this bill in 2008. Why???? It's not that we're xenophobic...People from these countries have proven that they will toil away for a fraction of their worth in post-doc programs.
The CEO of IBM just a few months ago gave a speech about the shortage of engineers his company is struggling with. A month later, IBM lays off 10,000 people. What a tool.
This bill will hurt entry level more than anything....so much so that I think the number of US students who major in engineering will dwindle to zero.
The deomcrats are pushing this bill hard, and Bush loves the guest worker program too much to veto it. Most republicans hate the bill, but it is unlikely there are enough to filibuster it.
I said a global shortage. North America may be significant economically but it is only a small fraction of the world population. The engineers are drawn to the areas that pay the best, namely North America and Europe, therefore the shortage will be felt the least in those regions.
The immigration is actually a double edged sword, it can flood the market in rich countries but can also act as a 'brain drain' in the poorer countries that are not able to compete with the salaries.
Regalia,
I would like to ammend my statement regarding the doctors. In my region of you look up medical doctor in you yellow pages you get a whole list of foreign names. My doctor is from india. I think that you will find this type of visa arrangement has already been applied to the medical professions for some time.
One thing in the favor of American Engineers is that many states will not let you become a PE unless you are a US citizen/ permanent resident. Unfortunately this means that they will be more likely to compete with US students for entry level jobs.
There is a shortage of /experienced/ engineers (hooray) in Australia. The company I work for is recruiting internationally, and has been for the past few years. Over in Western Australia mining engineers with two year's experience are being hired for 200000 dollars a year, anecdotally.
Logically, if there is an excessive supply of engineers, our pay should be falling with respect to the rest of the workforce. As a multiple of the median pay, it is in fact rising, since last year the engineers in this company got an average 4.0% rise, the preceeding three years it was 5% pa. Wage 'inflation' in Oz was 3.6% last year, in which we also hit 95% employment, and 3.8% the previous year.
So, this "global" excess seems to be a Canadian phenomenon.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
