Salary?? 4

[viking47]

I was wondering if anyone has checked out

http://www.salary.com

. If so, what do think of the salary ranges they list for your profession?

I thought they were somewhat high for a mid-level civil engineer. But I really have not paid to much attention to the job market past few years. I would appreciate other people’s opinions.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Viking Power!

Well, according to salary.com I'm not making enough money for where I am and what I do (New York City). And I seem to be behind web page designer III and fishmonger.

Nothing like a salary survey to turn one's stomach... The numbers seem to be a lot higher than those in Civil Engineering News' annual salary survey. The reason is most likely that you might pay salery.com money to find you a better job to match their stats. Concerning Civil Enigneers, salary.com doesn't say anything about professional registration - which we all know is the most important factor in an engineer's career path, so my advice would be to look elsewhere for such stuff as salary.com should have done better research... Apparently all one needs to be a CE III is a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience to make near $100k a year in New York City. Compared to $70 grand in Florida. Geographically speaking, $100k in NYC is darn good money, and just enough to get yourself a better-than-average place to live - and it's relatively modest if you're in the company of 22-year old bankers who spend that much on lunch in a years' time. In Florida, $70k a year will have one living like a king - and that includes a house, boat, car, year-round DisneyWorld passes.

 

[jproj]

According to "Salary.com" I need to ask for a $10,000 raise! I'm sure my boss will be receptive to that . I do work for a small company, though and I think I'd rather have my low stress 40 hr/week job over an 80 hr/week job that pays $10,000 more (that actually would decrease in (hourly) pay!). Overall, I have to agree that the numbers are inflated.

jproj

 

[PSE]

Leave it to Engineers to look beneath the surface of any Salary Survey (gotta love it)! What constitutes an Engineer III? Greater than 5 years of experience is a huge range. What size companies participated in the survey? What size of geographic location did the survey cover? Cost of living within that geographical locale? What cross section of corporate sizes were included? Of course you could pay for the "personalized" survey which should allow you to bore down through the information. I wouldn't rely upon any single source for this type of information. When all is said and done folks, it is not necessarily what you earn, it is what you can keep that builds wealth.

 

[ludvik]

Well if you are the investment banker in new york that DaveViking is refering to, you better watch your pennies because according to salary.com you earn less than us not-for-profit engineers.

Salary.com is hopeless...it says that investment analysts get bonuses of ~$2000 on top of a base salary of $55000. Bankers get around 30-90% of their renumeration from bonuses. Bankers are famous for bitching about their bonuses too. I have a friend who quit his job at salomon smith barney as an analyst because his bonus was "only" $10k in his first year out of college. The fact that salary.com doesn't know about this smacks their credibility with the kiss of death.

 

[Haf]

I guess I'm in the minority, but the salary ranges seemed about right to me. For mechanical engineering, I personally thought some of the numbers were even on the low side.

 

[miner00]

Though I don't put much stock in them, I would say that Haf proves that statistics are real. There must be a few out there making the big bucks while the rest of us drag the average back down!

 

[kxyoung]

I've been with small and large firms and now with the State of California. I've done both structural and roadway design, as well as construction management. In addition to being licensed P.E., with a M.S. in Structure and another M.S. in Business, sad to say, according to the salary.com's report, I'm right on target for Civil Engineer II for the San Francisco area, which has one of the highest cost of living in US.

I think part of the reason for the relative low pay, is due to our chosen profession. The work we do is supposed to be rewarding enough that we don't care about the salary. Right? At least that's how I got brained washed.

The owner of the company will try to stay competitive and to maximize the profit by always try to give the lowest salary to keep an engineer. Else, an engineer can be replaced since there are plenty of others that's will to work for cheaper rate.

I guess after closed to 10 years of experience, I'm ready to make a transition from being an engineer to something else, yet without abandoning all my background. So instead of wasting my energy on worry about the salary, I'm concentrating on what I want to do with my work experience and to make it profitable.

 

[ludvik]

During dot com, a whole bunch of engineers quit to go work on wall street. Wall street firms employ engineers in both regular entry level analyst positions, and in numerical simulation positions. Either job, with a simple bachelors degree in engineering and a few years experience, would pretty much double your engineering salary.

If you had an MBA with a finance focus in addition to the above qualifications, you could enter with a firm at the associate level at $180k (at Salomon Smith Barney for instance).

The reason engineers and other sci/tech people have these opportunities is that a lot of investment houses are getting into "financial engineering" which entails some pretty hard core financial simulations...hedge funds - of which there are 8000 now in the US - are the biggest growth market for this kind of thing.

It has dried up a bit now post dot-com, but the next boom can't be too far away...

Having said that, I understand the work is not particularly satifying, and the pressure is unrelenting. Additionally, all banking/finance involves a degree of theft...its how they manage to pay themselves so well.

I am personally vexxed about wall street. The scarceness of pay in engineering fustrates me to the point of wanting to quit, but on the other hand I both enjoy the work, and believe in what it does for the world. Hmmmm...

 

[kxyoung]

My wife was in the dot-com business before and was earning more than twice of my salary before the euphoria is over. Now, she is in the process of carefully choosing her next job. It'll have to be something that interest her and fits her personal views.

One advice/question I often give to people studying for his or her PE license is, "After all the effort and eventually you got your PE license, what's next? What are you going to do with your PE?"

I guess that is the key is continuoulsy learning and advancing and seeking opportunities. Engineers tend to have the personality that are conservative and avoid risks. Observing from various places I worked, I see engineers get too comfortable within in a corporate environment, and get even more passive each year. Ambition was replaced by negative out look. The negativity was justified by the so-so salary. The poor salary fuels the passive outlook. What a vicious cycle!

I started out with structural engineering just because the product is something tangiable. I had the imagery of the engineers in the early 1900s who built bridges, railroad tracks, and etc. Lots of hard work, but imagine all the bridge tolls and train tickets the engineer/prospector will get once the project completes! Not only the idea sounds lucrative and beneficial to society at the time, imagine all the advantures involved!

Well, the idea interested me back in college(s), until I realize that the industrial age switched to the informational age of today, and that the government runs the bridges and transportation infraustructures. Enough said, I guess I have to think of something else.

Ludvik, if you are vexed about wall street, I urge you to learn and study more about the field. I have a chemical enginner coworker/roomate from Bechtel who later joined Charles Swab and he is loving where he is now. He started as a market analyist, to project spectulating now. Making money for the company and taking the spare change home is his motivation now.

Fortunately, there are plenty of low-wage engineering jobs around. Even if even if engineering work is out, I guess there is always minimum wage drafting work. So why not seek Wall Street related experience utilizing your structureal background) a try, and rest assure that you can always fall back on the safety factor of grunt-work engineering if investing didn't interest you.

 

[ludvik]

kxyoung - thank you for your insights. You make a few good points, but just a couple of questions.

What are you getting at when you ask people what they are going to do with their PE? I mean, isn't it kind of obvious? You just do whatever you were going to do otherwise only you get to sign drawings.

Did your chemical engineer friend who now works for Charles Schwab get his MBA, or did he just jump into it? What's his/her story?

My attraction to wall street is primarily the money, but it would have some other cool things about it too. You mentioned railroads...JP Morgan back in the late 19th century through his financing of the railroads was able to shape the economy of the united states on a macro level. He got to decide where towns would be, which industries would make it which wouldn't, and more or less how the economy of the nation would run for the next half century. I find this "economic engineering" aspect appealing.

THere are of course a great deal in the finance world that I find decidedly unappealling. I understand there is a lot of yelling that goes on. Junior analysts, no matter how sturdy their constitution, are invariably torn to shreds and miserable as a result. There is also all kinds of power politics that I could live without to boot.

Consulting engineering, whilst chronically underpaid, is also very gentlmanly and thoughtful. There really isn't much in the way of yelling, and that is something I like.

I would appreciate any further insights this forum could provide.

 

[kxyoung]

It all depends what one wants out of life and in this case, what is your ultimate goal with your chosen engineering career? Ludvik is correct about the PE license gives one the authority to sign-off on drawings. However, is that the end? I guess the following question is, “Will you be content with doing the same things as before, and get to sign plans and produce special specifications?”

I’ve worked with great engineers who have this type of persona. I give thanks to these old-timers, for I’ve learned so much. That company will give its employee a gold Rolex watch for 25 years of continuous service. Hence, you know one must be a good engineer and has not gotten layoff when you see the Rolex watch. Still, even with all the years and great reputation, poor salary and job stability were the major complaints.

If one is perfectly happy with ones work and like doing similar things for living and the stability, then it’s great! However, notice that in the employer’s mind, how can one justify a drastic increase in salary each year, after all, it’s the similar work, design, or calculations, right? Besides, when one approach the big boss with the PE stamp and asking for a raise, he or she might politely point out to you that only one PE stamp (most likely his own PE) per company is all that’s needed and that's all the insurance company is covered. He or she might even followed with an insult to the poor engineer, “So what additional value, or additional revenue/business are you generating for me?”

Okay, I hope that no one is offended and that was just me trying to act like a jerk. As a jerk I would add, “I’m interviewing three more licensed engineers looking for work this afternoon, aren’t you going on vacation soon and do you mind sharing your desk space with another engineer?” In reality, we are all replaceable and the PE doesn’t give one super-natural power. Hell! Even one of my best friends just got a PE in civil engineering after working years in construction management, and his degree was B.S. Mechanical Engineering!

As I recalled, my friend was always interested with stocks and calculations associated with investment, where I was interested with the project leadership and operation side. Just like I did, he just does not seeing himself working at the same environment for the next 25 years with poor moral. Seeing me with night classes, my chemical engineer friend started attending night classes for his MBA while working as an engineer. As I recalled our Chief discouraged our schooling since we started to refuse overtime work. Eventually, he learned enough concepts through school and took a risk and leaped into a startup company as a financial analyst, and later picked up by Swab. I dare to say he has higher salary and able to afford his own Rolex than his old chief who still complain about the salary and lack of job security. My friend still has yet to finish his MBA program, when he has more free time later in life.

So now, I would joke around with my chemical engineering friend that with our ‘unique’ background and interests, we should start something such as a micro beer brewery together. He’ll define the plant process, I’ll have it design and built and make it run, while my mechanical engineering friend can do the quality control in the tasting room? This way, we will fully utilize what we do well while we embark on something new and fun. Furthermore, we’ll be creating job for the engineering students as well?

As for yelling in the financial world, I say there are plenty of yelling anywhere if one gets high enough in the profession. The yelling actually gets louder as the dollar amount involved increases! As an engineer, I constantly get yell at and insulted and falsely accused by the grand big boss, contractors, estimator, schedulers, permit offices, politicians, lawyers, public, clients, and the list goes on and on. At the end and no matter what profession it is, it is how professional you are, when handling the yelling that’s what counts.

I am not saying that one should just quit being an engineer now. What I’m suggesting is, one need to pay ones dues, become a professional, be well rounded in every aspect besides engineering, and so to create more opportunity for oneself, whether it’s engineering or evolve into something as a result of it.

 

[joekm]

Let me re-awaken this old thread...

What are todays opinions of salary.com? I've been looking around and I'm getting the impression that their basic survey is optomistic.

Any thoughts?



--
Joseph K. Mooney
FAA DER Structures

 

[HgTX]

I'm well below the 25th percentile. Must be that government worker thing. I could do the personalized version where they take my employer into account but I don't feel like signing up with my name and eamil.

Hg

 

[mechantaeus]

i should be asking for raise.

----------------------------------------
Work Hard and Work Smart.

 

[IRstuff]

Looked OK to me

TTFN

 

[someonesdad]

I'm not sure how to judge; my current pay is higher than the 75th percentile number they quote. However, I'm working for this company as a contractor rather than as a direct employee and it's pretty well known that contractors get paid more because they don't get any benefits.

I did work for this company as an employee a few years ago and the numbers I saw from salary.com would be in line with the salary I was making then.

 

[sam74]

I've only worked for one company since graduating with a BS and I started out on a survey crew. This web site says I'm about 10 grand underpaid. I don't know how realistic that is since I've not shopped around lately.

 

[Applieddem]

To all Engineers,

We are all at fault for our own wages. Just take a look at all of the other professions and you will see that engineers tend to undercut their own peers and hire for less. They think that since they are engineers that any one can do their job.

This is not the case - if it was not for engineers there would be no back bone to build on. So start to unite and work together to make engineering the number one career and stop undercutting each other. You do not see two law firms bitting on the same project coming at half price, it is always the same. But engineers and engineering companies just kill each other.

Also by the way age has nothing to do with skills and capabilities - if an engineer is 30 years old or 50 that does not mean the 50 year old guy should make more... The 30 year old guy could have gotten a lot more experiance and be a lot more capable and should make more....

With technology and todays enviromrnt experiance does not directly go with age but the persons ability to learn and involvment in project, applications and his/her skills...

I personally thing that engineers should be paid more than even salary.com reports and I know of few that do make more...

Think about this - In GREEK times they already new this - the art of managing few is the same as the art of managing many. It only takes more organization... So why do the salaries for the Presidents of large companies are so much more than for small when the job is basically the same, as all engineers would point out. Simple demend and supply and because they can get it.

So in conclusion, Engineers get what you can and never short yourslef short since no one can do your job and do not let some bean counter tell you that there is. If there was than they would already have him or her.

 

[jsummerfield]

Engineers may find that more money is earned closer to where the money changes hands. The risk is associated with the financial decision process.

Most engineers work on salary or a pseudo hourly salary. I like to point out that management sees us as a commodity. We submit a requisition to HR to hire. I want this very specific experience. I get résumé’s from HR for everyone with any of those words. Management says to hire five electrical engineers by Friday. When the project is nearing completion, management says to cut six civil/structural engineers by Friday. We are regarded as a commodity.

Project managers bid the jobs with too little information and an overly optimistic schedule requirement from the customer. They negotiate the change-orders, expand the work, ... thus project managers make the bigger bucks. So does the comptroller who manages the cash flow, etc.

Sales people often work on commission. All of their effort is at their own risk and their rewards are their rewards.

Engineers go to work, do their 40 hours, likely expect to get paid to work during a crunch. They do not expect to get cut when work is slow.

BTW, age can have a lot to do with skills and capabilities. You are on the right track if you are acknowledging that there is a big difference between an engineer with 20-years experience and an engineer with one-year experience - 20 times. It is possible for the 30 year old guy to have more experience or be more capable than the older engineer. Not as likely as you may think but possible.

The younger, aggressive, capable engineer is definitely more eligible for promotion. So, you must ask yourself, is that you? Are you that aggressive capable engineer; or are you happy to draw that salary and put in your 40?

John