Schneider Modicon Quantum PLC

[ScottyUK]

My site is shortly going to receive a Modicon PLC incorporated within a larger system. I'm likely to be the first port of call on this system, although I'm not familiar with this model of PLC. Most of my PLC experience is on Allen-Bradley's SLC5's, with a little on the Siemens S5.

Does anyone have any opinions, good or bad, about the Schneider product? Any known weaknesses or common faults I'm going to meet? All comments warmly received.


T.I.A.



-----------------------------------

Start each new day with a smile.

Get it over with.

 

[amptramp]

The Quantum plc scans the logic differently than most plc mfg's. Modicon logic is built in networks which are scanned top to bottom, left to right. This logic paradigm is leftover from the early days of Modicon. I don't know if this is an advantage or disadvantage, but it certainly affects the programmer and troubleshooter.

 

[ScottyUK]

Jeez, just what I need....

Thanks for the advice, AmpTramp. Do you know if Schneider's own manuals give any information on their unusual programming method? I've not met it before, and it sounds like I'm going to be learning real soon.




-----------------------------------

Start each new day with a smile.

Get it over with.

 

[Wfacac]

You could be programming and troubleshooting on a whole new level. Quantums support 32 bit IEC language. It's different from 984 ladder logic the way Controllogix is different from RS500 in Allen Bradley. If you can break away from a "relay logic" style of thinking its really a nice style of programming. Modicon is just a different animal, a little learning and there's nothing to it.
Besides if it was easy someone else would do it.

 

[stimic]

As an EE in Western Canada, I use primarily Allen-Bradley, Modicon and GE Fanuc PLC's of all sizes and IO counts. My preferences, in order are:

1. GE
2. Allen Bradley
3. Modicon

I put Modicon 3rd because if you are forced to program in ProWorx, some higher authority has a hate on for you. If you can program Modicon in the Concept programming software, I would rate this PLC as #1. All 3 are reasonably robust and come in many different flavors of models. Modicon/Telemecanique does well here.

 

[mcgowan]

I am currently updated a plant to the quantum series controller...If the program you are going to be using is in ladder then the differences are not to bad..(I was trained on allen bradley and got thrown into the modicon almost the same way you are!..it took a while but now i find it difficult to program ab!)..modicon uses similar function blocks and instructions..timers and counters are different as well as reseting...however the modicon beats ab hands down when it comes to on line editing..there is no difference between on and offline as far as its concenced..could be a good thing or bad thing depending on what you do!..i would imagine you are going to be using the pro worx software which i find is similar to rs logix 500 or 5000 although it is not quite as freindly. The esiest software to program the quantum with is modsoft..however it will only work in dos and does not work with newer versions of windows.....all said and done modicon is o.k...i am still pushing the plant to change to ab and it looks like some people are taking notice now that modicon has made there 984 series redundant..(The plant is only 7 years old and now cannot get spare parts for there plc)...If you have any spefic questions let me know..i will try and help..also how are you going to comunicate? MBplus..Modbus? or serial?

 

[ScottyUK]

Thanks McGowan and everyboady else who has replied.

I'll post more questions as I get answers myself.



-----------------------------------

Start each new day with a smile.

Get it over with.

 

[killemall]

Scotty,

95% of my work is AB, but I think Modicon Concept is the best programming tool after using AB for so many years.
I recently did a large project, which I developed some fantastic Function blocks which made the job soo much easier, and are reusable on any future projects. It was my first time using function block programming, but I found it very intuitive. It is similar to drawing a flow chart or digital logic diagram. Way better than ladder.

When you develop a program using multiples of your own funtion block, it creates separate instances of the function. You can zoom in on a function block and see the code running inside.

Concept also has ladder and structured text programming. I used FB and structured text, but did not use ladder at all, even though all my programing has been ladder for 20 years.

I would be happy if all my programming could be using Modicon with Concept. It is a dream to use.
Concept is expensive however, so a lot of people opt for ProWorx. ProWorx sux. Avoid it wherever possible.

The only disadvantage of concept, is you must have the program on your computer, you can not upload a program from the PLC (although this may have changed now).


To McGowan: I completely disagree with your comment "modicon beats ab hands down when it comes to on line editing"

It is terrible. With AB, you can test your edits, if you make an error, you can easily cancel your edits. With Modicon, your edits are imediately online. This makes it very difficult to modify an operating program without breaking something. AB has the safety backup of testing before assembling.

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi killemall,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm not a full-time PLC developer, but I do enough DCS work to understand block-type programming.

Proworx is bad, huh? I'll have to see if I can get a look at Concept before we receive the equipment, but I have a feeling I'll be meeting ProWorx soon!

Are you UK or US based? This might be one of those systems that is better farmed out to a specialist - there isn't enough time to become an expert on every system.





-----------------------------------

Start each new day with a smile.

Get it over with.

 

[eglaude]

Many years ago I began programming on Modicon 584's with the old dos Modsoft programer. I was also responsible for training in-plant techs on how to troubleshoot as well as do "simple" changes to programs. This was quite a shift for techs who were used to dealing with relay logic. The biggest challenge was to keep up on PC's and laptops and how the dos programs ran in the unstable Windows environment.
I've worked with many other brands, GE, AB, Honeywell, and others, and will admit that the later GE Fanucs are perhaps the easiest to work with with limited skills. I know many will disagree, but the fact is not all shop techs, or engineers for that matter, have the required networking and other higher level computer skills required with some of these software packages that assume that you are sitting in a calm and controlled environment.
I have worked with Modicon's Concept and it is perhaps the best out there for advanced features, and a logical way to represent the "flow" of you software code. It takes some getting used to like anything else, but the advntages outweigh the negatives.
We recently went from GE to AB Contrologix and it has been a nightmare. Techs will not touch the user unfriendly things as they are very difficult to learn and required software skills of a certified MCSE to use properly.
The Modicon hardware is bullet proof and will take care of you equipment. The Quantun line is very advanced and flexible. ProWorx software for Modicon is something to avoid if possible, push to get Concept software.

 

[mcgowan]

killemall....i do agree that the testing fuction in ab is a good thing..however i did find it cumbersome to use..This i know is due to lack of use.. However i feel modicons on line editing is better when you go into the low end processors..like the micros and such..with ab's micrologix you cannot edit on line where as the low end modicon micro you can..(Price wise there is a diffenece tho..modicon IS twice the price..

As for proworx...i couldnt agree with you more.. I had version 1 and to me they released it to soon without getting all the bugs out.. I kept getting runtime errors and loosing all my documentation for it...So to get around that i had to program blind with no documentation..upload the processor bring it to site and then download it in modsoft then enter the documentation...Not a fun way to do it..I had no choice becouse the machine we were building was fab'd offsite in a machine shop and the laptop i had would not support modsoft..(Windows XP)

 

[Palengke]

Killemall,
You can upload the PLC program in Concept if you do not have a copy of the program. Open up Concept and open a new project. Within the new project go ahead and go on line and just acknowledge all the pop-up windows that will show. Concept will now upload the PLC program but without the comments that your program might contain. By the way I am using Concept 2.6 and Quantum Modicon Micro. Easy to work with and very flexible.

 

[scubabeme]

I'm with several others in this thread. If you can, press to use Concept vs. ProWORX. At best ProWORX would be considered buggy. It will blow up on you at the worst time--when you need it. Concept is much more stable, and if you use the IEC programming--easier. I've had to learn "984LL", AB ladder and Concept. I much prefer Concept!

 

[leon78]

I am working in automation business during of 4 years. The used programs is Concept 2.5 (earlier Concept 2.5) and EFB Toolkit. I programme Modicon TSX Quantum with IEC HSBY for automation of oil pump station. My project is allow the:
- process the 2000 discrete inputs;
- process the 500 analog inputs;
- process the any number outputs;
- if module is failing, then his inputs have sign of invalidation;
- the new signal can describe with HMI without stopping and downloading project in CPU;
- the new equipment can describe with HMI without stopping and downloading project in CPU;
- the any signal (logical or physical) can describe with one word;
- the timescan is 150 ms with HSBY.
I think, Concept 2.5 rather good package (if Schneider Electric will care more of elimination of mistakes, it becomes even better)

 

[tulum]

I have used a long list of PLC's from a long list of manufaturers. Recently I designed a control system for a large hydroelectric plant using the quantum line of plc hardware and a prolinx ptq-dnp3 module (in rack) for communicating with the master station via DNP3.

To make a long story short, I used Concept 2.6 software which adhears to IEC standards. The point being, most large PLC manufacuturers are trying develop software that adhears to this standard. That way, theoretically, in the future you should be able to pick up a different manufactures software and not have to re-learn it. Far fetched? Not really. I recently, had a look at an ABB RTU built to the same IEC standard (logiclinx I believe) and the differences were negligble! I could have sworn it was written in Concept FBD.

The only problem with Schneider (as with most manufacturers) is that they have already moved on to a new software package to replace concept... oh goody.

All in all the hardware is easy to install, there are many modules to fit your application, and the software is very flexible.

If you have any question, keep posting...

 

[ScottyUK]

Sorry to dig this old thread up from the dead, but I have just had a quote from Schneider Electric for the ProWORX 32 Nxt Offline/Online (NXT-DEV) package. The quoted price is just over 3,700GBP (no, that is not a typo). This came as something of a shock, to say the least.

Is this the top-of-the-line package? Are there cheaper alternatives? I am looking for broad equivalent functionality to A-B's RSLogix500 package.

Any ideas? A quick calculation says it would be cheaper to dump the whole Schneider PLC in the skip and replace it with an Allen Bradley, but I am trying to avoid that option (for now).





----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[krkautomation]

Hi Scotty,

Welcome to the world of Schneider....

I'm afraid Proworx 32 is pretty much entry level for this range - if you want a real shock ask about the £££ for Concept or its soon-to-be-replacement Unity...

If you're on a budget and are only going to have to support the one machine you might try to get hold of an old copy of Proworx NXT (Windows) or Modsoft (DOS but can be run under windows with a virtual MBX driver)


Kevin H

http://www.krkautomation.com

 

[ScottyUK]

Thanks for the reply Kevin.

I'll investigate the ProWorx NXT option as suggested because this is a one-off application. Most of our PLCs are A-B, and the complicated stuff is handled by either Foxboro I/A or Emerson WDPF systems. Now they really are experts on outrageous pricing!








----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[mcgowan]

Scotty if you have a laptop around that you can dump and install windows 3.1 or win 95 then just go for the modsoft program. It will work from the serial port in those versions withoput much agro...I assume you will not be using modbus plus if it is a stand alone unit..If you are then you need to look into the modbus plus card and the sa85 drivers (Which last time i checked are about as much as the card itself!)
I will also check a quote i did for a customer about 3 months ago to upgrade to NXT ..I Think it was about 3,000 Canadian for the software in Quids that would be about 1,500 or so...I will let you know..

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi McGowan,

Modbus Plus is in use for a touchscreen, the plc also is running an Echelon network interface to a diesel generator control system. The OEM's commissioning engineer is using Modsoft, so I will talk further with him.

regards,




----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!