SE Exam/Registration Question

[DaveVikingPE]

In my state of New York, there is no "SE" designation. Everyone is simply a "PE." So if you took the civil PE exam, you're a PE and if you took the elelctrical PE exam, you're a PE.

The time has come for me to look further. With my PE in hand, I can call myself a structural engineer in the state of New York - which is what my job title is, and it's what I do. I took the Civil PE, with the structural portion in the PM.

The time has come... because I see the writing on the wall... for me to get crackin' on the SE exam. Here's what the NCEES web site (

http://www.ncees.org/records/mlse/)

says, snas a bunch of other stuff like classes taken, etc. - all stuff that I meet - about the "Model Law Structural Engineer" - something that would be good for my career:

"Passed 16 hours of structural examinations consisting of one of the following: NCEES structural examinations, 8 hours of which are the Structural II examination, 16-hour state-written structural examinations taken prior to 2004, NCEES SE II plus 8-hour state-written examinations"

For clarification, here's NCEES eligibility for the SE II: "In jurisdictions that license structural engineers SEPARATELY from professional engineers, structural engineering licensure candidates must take one or more of the following exams: PE Civil, PE Structural I, PE Structural II, and/or any required state-specific exam(s). "

I think I would fall into the first category, that is, I would take the SE II. Issues I anticipate encountering: 1) should I take the SE II exam in New York? Why bother since New York doesn't license SE's separately. 2) How about taking the SE II in Illinois? I wonder if they'll make me take the SE I (I don't want to, but would do it provided I could take the SE II the next day - assumes six months of solid study on my part, and that I do design for a living, it will be hard, but certainly passable). 3) What about California? Would I have to take the SE I, II, and III there?

I picked Illinois and California because they're the most well-known states regarding the SE license to me.

Comments? Thoughts? Those of us with the SE, especially newly-minted SE's please chim in! Thanks in advance!

 

[JAE]

Dave,

In Illinois, you must take the SE-1 and the SE-2 to be licensed as a Structural Engineer. If you've previously taken the PE exam (not the SE-1), you still must take the SE-1 to qualify to take the SE-2.

Whether you take the SE tests in NY or any other state doesn't matter...they are the same NCEES tests and apply to any state in which you apply for licensure.

California is a different matter. While Illinois restricts any and all structural design to SE's, California allows structural design for most structures with a PE. (SE is required there for tall buildings, schools, hospitals, and any other project where the governing agency demands the SE).

To get licensed in CA to do structural, The standard PE exam is required along with a 5 hour California exam consisting on 2 1/2 hours of Seismic and 2 1/2 hours of surveying. This gets you a Civil PE which you can apply to structural design. To get an SE designation in CA - I believe you must pass all the SE tests - I know they used to have a specific "Western States Exam" but I think they may have converted it over to the SE-3 - but not sure.... You also have to have references from other Calif. SE's to get an SE license.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

argh. Well, I usually pick the hard way when it comes to doing things... From other posts, JAE, I understand that you're an Illinois SE. Do you live and practice in IL? Or did you get registered in IL while/during working elsewhere? Are you also licensed as an SE in California?

Since the SE tests focus only on structural, they would be "easy" for me... Sure...

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Dave - Here are the NCEES descriptions of the current SE I exam

http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional/pe_structural_1_exam_specs.pdf

and the SE II exam

http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional/pe_structural_2_exam_specs.pdf

with the applicable references for both exams

http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional/pe_design_standards/structural_design_standards.pdf

As JAE has explained, you can "mix and match" where you take the exam. Two years ago, I had a continuing education student (in South Carolina) who chose to travel to Ohio to take the SE I exam for work in South Carolina. This had to do with the administrative deadlines for paperwork submission - he missed the SC date, but met the OH cutoff.

Much of the SE I exam is similar to the PE Civil (Structural) afternoon questions - but more code oriented.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Basically, the SE I looks like the PE Structural without all the engineering economics...

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Here is the answer I got back from my state's board:

Dear Mr. [DaveVikingPE]:

Thank you for contacting the New York State Board for Engineering and Land Surveying. In NYS we do not license by discipline. If you are already licensed and have sat and successfully completed either the Civil or structural I PE exam you may request to sit for the Structural II exam. This request may be made to the State Board for Engineering at the address listed below.

We hope this information is helpful. If you have any questions, please contact the Board Office at the contact information listed below.

Sincerely,

NYS Board for Engineering & Land Surveying
(518) 474-3817 ext 140
(518) 473-6282 (fax)

 

[fndn]

In addition to JAE's comments of taking SE in CA, you'll need 3 yrs of Structural experience after your PE license.

 

[JAE]

DaveViking - what your NY board says is correct...for NY. For Illinois you must take the SE-1 (I tried to apply with my PE exam already passed and with PE's in various states but I still had to go back and take the SE-1 and then the SE-2 to practice in ILL).

I'm not located within Illinois, just licensed there. I'm not licensed in CA.

 

[JStephen]

"While Illinois restricts any and all structural design to SE's, California allows structural design for most structures with a PE. (SE is required there for tall buildings, schools, hospitals, and any other project where the governing agency demands the SE)."

What I found several years ago was that while the above was technically true, it seemed customers there expected anything remotely structural to be sealed by an SE. IE, I think an SE in CA might be more useful than the above statement would imply.

 

[JAE]

JStephen, you might be right. I do know that most of the industrial projects (big box warehouses) that I've worked on in CA have only had a CA PE over me do the sealing, though. And I had a friend of mine move from Texas to California some years back and start his own firm with a Civil PE doing structural work.

 

[swearingen]

It doesn't pertain to me, but to help DaveVikingPE out:

NY, as stated in their policy, requires you to have taken the Civil PE **OR** the SE I to sit for the SE II.

Since he has taken his Civil PE, he can sit for the SE II without taking the SE I.

The question is, can he get a structural license in Illinois by taking only the SE II? Or stated another way, does Illinois specifically require both the SE I and SE II exams to be eligible for their state's SE stamp?

If not, that would at least get him out of one test...

 

[DaveVikingPE]

swearingen: true. It would get me out of one test. ...and that would be great, but:

Here's why I all of a sudden got a "panic" interest in the SE. (I've always had an interest, it wasn't a #1 priorty or thereabouts). A job search engine autonotified me by e-mail of an opening for a structural in Hawaii. The opening happens to be with an office of a Government agency for which I qualify as a "preferential hire." That is, I put my time in with said agency and the equity I built up is worth something. HOWEVER, the qualifications required a PE-SE, not just a PE. The job is an experienced journeyman-level (I guess Engineer V/GS-12 - though don't quote me on it) structural engineer position. Usually, the PE is plenty, especially if you're a structural engineer, which I am (I don't have the SE of course, but I have my PE and work in a structural department under two structurals, both with doctoral degrees and their PEs). The requirement for the PE and SE woke me up. I'm not disappointed that I can't apply for a nice job in Hawaii - I'm fine here in NYC. The problem is that I see the PE-SE requirement as a trend and sooner or later New York will buckle (pun intended) and start licensing SEs. And, of course, having the SE will open even more doors than the PE does.

Now, I like the cut of JAE's jib. No one gets in any trouble by following the rules. I was once sent to Champaign, IL for a training course - a structural course, 'natch. I got some exposure to U of Ill structural professors and let's put it this way: structural isn't simply a branch of civil engineering. Anyway, if you have to take both tests for the IL SE, then sobeit, same with California's requirements.

When it comes down to it, it's just a test; the tough part is the application process, then comes the studying.

What's good for me is this: 1) I have my PE and thus can work as and call myself a professional engineer and a structural engineer in New York, and perhaps a lot of other states that don't license separately (like Florida). 2) I can always take the SE I and SE II here in New York. Since I already am a PE, the application process "probably" will be just a formality rather than the massive hill to climb it was the first time around. 3) I think that, and this is purely conjecture on my part and I don't feel ilke doing the research now, with the SE I and SE II in-hand I can take whatever state-specific extra tests I have to and I can be registered in those various states.

I think that "just" having the PE and taking (and passing) the SE II, while OK in New York feels like "skating." On the other hand, If I take the SE II (and pass it) in New York and then take the SE I to satisfy another state's requirement, I'd be rid of the "skating" feeling. If that makes sense.

 

[JAE]

DaveViking,

Makes sense, yes. Just another snippet from another state I'm licensed in....Nebraska. They currently allow all PE's to do any structural work. However, they also acknowledge someone who has taken the SE-1 and SE-2 by allowing them to call themselves "Structural Engineer" both in their title and on their engineering seal.

Those who only have the PE, or only have the SE-1, cannot use "Structural Engineer" in titles or on their seal. So its just a right to title issue...for now. There is a committee currently studying this where they will change the law such that only those who have passed the PE [red]or [/red]SE-1 and the SE-2 can practice engineering.

Here’s the further requirement of when an SE is required on a project:

[blue](5) Practice of Structural Engineering:

Building and Bridge structures and their individual structural components that do not meet the exempted status as indicated in Nebraska’s Engineers and Architects Regulation Act or Title 110: Nebraska Administrative Code are required to be designed or analyzed under the responsible charge of a Licensed Civil or Structural Engineer. A licensed Structural Engineer is required to be in responsible charge of the design or analysis of any of the following types of structures and their individual structural components which are not exempt:

10.4.1 Buildings with more than 5000 square feet of floor space.
10.4.2 Buildings assigned occupancy category groups A, B, E, F, H, I, or M.
10.4.3 Bridges with any single span of 160 feet or greater.
10.4.4 Curved Bridges with central radii of 2000 feet or less and skewed Bridges with skew angles greater than 60 degree.
10.4.5 Bridges with structural systems that include post-tensioned concrete members, cable supports, or trusses with spans exceeding 160 feet.
10.4.6 All structural systems or components that are composed of alternate design, alternate materials or alternate methods of construction as defined by the design code(s) adopted by the authority having jurisdiction.[/blue]

 

[DaveVikingPE]

My New York seal says "professional engineer," though my business card says "structural engineer" - which is also my official job title. I am aware that in those states that license SEs, that my business card may be violating state law, though I'm not violating the law in New York.

This is surely a sign of things to come in all states: "Those who only have the PE, or only have the SE-1, cannot use "Structural Engineer" in titles or on their seal. So its just a right to title issue...for now. There is a committee currently studying this where they will change the law such that only those who have passed the PE or SE-1 and the SE-2 can practice engineering."

It's also been discussed to death in Structural Engineer magazine - meaning, it's only going to build up more steam until most and eventually all states will require the SE to do most structural engineering.

Considering what fndn mentioned, I have a gut feeling that the NY State board, since they don't have any written guidelines pertaining to "...you may request to sit for the Structural II exam..." they're probably going to ask to see samples of my work and they'll want perhaps three years' worth of PE-level structural work references. Not that any of that would be a problem, but I reckon that I'd better set myself up a plan to accomplish what needs to be accomplished and, by gosh, accomplish it.