Securing the National Grid(s) 2

[GrandpaDave]

I did a search on the subject of this new thread
and did not see any forums on this site... maybe
there is a thread somewhere. Anyway I'm putting
this new thread on top of climate change thread here
under "Where is Engineering Going In The Next 5 Years
Forum".

Are there any thoughts on the subject? Is it a
concern or not? The federal government (US government)
can not seem to move on this issue, in IMHO it is.

I came across the following site:

http://www.securethegrid.org/

G-pa Dave
PS: Hearing the audio book "One Second After" woke me up.

 

[GrandpaDave]

Cranky... Living in Florida for 30+ years, I have a generator and a survival kit.
This is hurricane country but this year thanks to El Nino the predictions are for
few major storms. We are ready for the long haul for survival too... call me crazy
but I might have to shoot neighbors to survive! Yes, too many people have been and
are taking things for granted. Take away their iPhones and they go nuts... I don't
have a Smart phone. Most critical companies, i.e., utilities, hospitals, police,
ire, etc. probably are good to go for the short term. But then all hell breaks out
and it's everyone for themselves. Are you prepared for that... or is it just silly?

Better prepared than dead.

 

[ornerynorsk]

"Are you prepared for that... or is it just silly?"

Not at all silly. People tend to forget history. I believe another poster on another thread said something to the effect that "we're all only 4 meals away from a total collapse of civilization". Something to that effect, coldly accurate.

People think the government is our savior, which couldn't be further from the truth. There's one person who has your best interest in mind . . . . you!


It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[cranky108]

Some people (as in most) forget that utility rates depend on cost of fuel, and equipment. Hardening of equipment is a cost which directly hits the customer bill (at least some utilities can pass 100% of this cost to customers).

So are you saying you would rather invest in your local utility company, or your personal enviroment?

The utilities are the low cost provider in electricty, but are soft targets for things that happen. Just how much is it worth for the little improvment you get? Your already better than 99.9%. What else can you say is that reliable? Is your car, the local store, the police department?

Securing the grid is more of a moto for wind farm investers who want someone else to pay for there issues, so they can better line there pockets with goverment money.

 

[GrandpaDave]

Cranky... "So are you saying you would rather invest in your local utility company,
or your personal enviroment?"

No, no... You are getting way off base and in a different ball park.
Reread my 1st post at the beginning:

Are there any thoughts on the subject? Is it a concern or not?
The federal government (US government) can not seem to move on
this issue, in IMHO it is. I came across the following site:

http://www.securethegrid.org/

Then I brought up the Federal Shield Act, H.R.2417 where the federal government
would secure the grid. Maybe I wasn't clear and we got off base.
I'm assuming you are a utility engineer and our PO'ed at most customers. Then again
maybe not. "Assumption is the Mother of all Screw Ups" --- unknown

 

[davefitz]

Solar flares could disable most of the electric grid, unless minor modifications to the grounding of installed transformers are made pro-actively or as a preventive measure. Either the gov't should legislate the action, or the insurance companies and/or utility stockholders demand such measures be implemented.

Secondary damage due to long term loss of the grid is also terrifying- consider that the inability to reliably cool the stored inventory of spent nuclear fuel pools would lead to roughly 90 Fukushima-type events in the continental US. We really are a rather stupid yet proud species .

"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad "

 

[cranky108]

I am a utilty engineer, and I am PO'ed at goverment regulations that don't help the consumers. The issue is that most consumers will say they want lower cost energy, however all these goverment regulations increase the cost of energy. The local grid was built to serve local customers, not some wind farm, or some other feel good project. In effect the local customers are being taken advantage of by some of these regulations.

More to the point, I work for a non-profit, so regulations directly effect the consumers rates. There are no profits, only taxes paid (actually passed through).

Solar flare issues are typically a short term event, which can be mitigated by opening interties, and since we can generate 100% of our own energy, that is an option. However, goverment regulations prevent that, in favor of more costly solutions.

 

[GrandpaDave]

Most consumers, me included, do not appreciate the effects of sky-rocketing
regulations impacts on everything. All I see is a huge $500 per month electric bill.

Since oil and gas are the bad forms of energy for the current administration,
cost to consumers will keep going north:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

But securing the national grid cannot be a private enterprise, can it? It will
require federal funds but I don't think the current administration sees it that way.
I believe that why the Shield Act is in limbo.

I don't know what the answer is, but burying one's head in the sand will bit us later
when it's too late.

 

[GrandpaDave]

I forgot to mention that COAL was the real bad guy above even oil and gas...

 

[cranky108]

One issue that is in the works, is fuel mix. In that too much dependence on any one fuel is a problem in price, and delevery shocks. And add to that the demand that utilities take more and more power from unstable energy sources, like wind (I would say solar, but as it is more dependable than wind I won't).

Every utility also faces local enviromental issues like earth quacks, wind, salt spray or dust. And most utilities do cut trees despite local opposition.

What is being taken off the table as a stratigy is the ability to break the grid apart so solar flares can be handled. The solutions will surely be more costly, but it allows wind farms to keep selling power.

The EMP issue has not been studied enough so that solutions can be proposed. So utilities don't have purchasable solutions, and have been thrown into a political issue as a whipping boy. Comments like utilities are not doing enough, while true, are not going to deliver the intended result that the public is looking for. It's a red hearing for re-elect me and I will fix this (when they can't at this time).

 

[Comcokid]

Actually, if you think about it, the ability of the grid to withstand a deliberate EMP event is unimportant. Such an event would quickly be followed by an exchange of missiles with multi-megaton warheads. Missing your favorite TV reality show because of a power outage would very low on the priority list while real-life reality would be on top.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Such an event would quickly be followed by an exchange of missiles with multi-megaton warheads.
You don't know that.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[urgross]

...and neither do you. If we are going to ask a nanny state requirement, such as EMP protection at no cost, then why not ask for a $90B "Star Wars" shield to protect us from cataclysmic meteor strike. Funny how some people will take on breth to complain about nanny state and high regulatory cost, then in the nexyt breath take th nanny state to task for not funding, with no tax or regultory oversight, a dim scenario of gloom and doom. Souinds like something Newt would think up to ask for mo' money to be the emperor of the moon.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> ...and neither do you
Nor am I claiming to.

==> If we are going to ask a nanny state requirement,
I'm not asking.

==> then in the nexyt breath take th nanny state to task for not funding,
I'm not doing that either. The less involved the government, the better the government.


Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[GrandpaDave]

Dr. URGROSS
==> $90B "Star Wars" shield to protect us from cataclysmic meteor strike

I believe the "Star Wars" shield was to protect the country from ballistic missiles.
I had worked on a POP Hit-to-Kill program back in the 1980s... The proof-of-principal (POP)
actually worked in a national lab. I've retired since then but there's still secret
work going on at the Missile Defense Agency and the U.S. Army Space & Missile Defense
Command up there, over there or down there depending on your perspective in Huntsville, AL.

Looks like this thread is heading into different directions. Have Fun...

 

[ewh]

I think the true purpose of Star Wars was to sucessfully bring down the Soviet Union, as they could not afford to counter the measure.

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[cranky108]

Other than EMP, We are doing a good job, but we can do better. At the utility level we don't see much from federal funding, that's more of an REA thing.

What would be helpful is restoration equipment and requirments, to better handle larger regenal events such as huricanes and such. But as excess equipment is not allowed to be (generally) put into the rate base, many utilities don't purchase them. The problem is many of the regulators don't understand how to make a utility work, other than the accounting side.

 

[davefitz]

The EMP event would probably be best addressed by a NERC CIP ( critical infrastructure plant) requirement that those generators that supply power to nearby defense users or nuclear plants have their transformers modified accordingly.



"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad "

 

[TomDOT]

I'm wondering how you manage a $500 electric bill, much less have one on a regular basis.

Even when we had that string of 100+ degree days all month, the bill for my house was less than $300. I leave several computers running all the time, wife and kid are home most of the day with the lights on, radio, tv, etc. Not a lot of tree shade on the house (some in late afternoon.) Insulation is whatever the contractor put in when it was built 20 years ago. Some solar screens, and I did do some gap caulking.

 

[KENAT]

Haven't hit $500 yet but on a hot month $400+ is readily achievable - this after installing extra insulation, new weatherstripping on the door and making sure the attic fan was set & working.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[ornerynorsk]

EWH, you are correct. I'm not sure that Star Wars was technically feasible or practicable at the time, but it introduced a new level to compete-or-die that the Soviets simply could not fund.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.