I recently graduted from college and will be starting a job working for the DOE. This work requires a security clearance that typically takes 3-12 months to complete. While I was there getting a tour with the manager of the facilities and speaking with co-workers. I came across a person who has been there for 9 months and has not got his clearance yet. I looked at his desk and it had piles of crossword puzzles, playing cards, and other things just to keep himself busy. When I seen that, it kind of scaried me. I hate being bored out of my mind and having to resort to crossword puzzles to keep it company. I just wanted to see if any others have been in this situation and if it is really going to be that bad?
Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations cowski on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Security Clearance
- Thread starter Sean82
- Start date
It can be that bad, but usually is not. It depends greatly on the complexity of your background, i.e., how much you've moved, etc.
However, if you do wind up in that situation, you can look at it as an opportunity to pursue additional education, personal, but related projects, research, etc. There's no reason to simply sit there and vegetate. Personally, if I see someone in the situation doing crossword puzzles, I'd wonder whether I made a good hiring decision.
Regardless of the situation or environment, I'd expect an engineer to be productive, one way or another.
TTFN
However, if you do wind up in that situation, you can look at it as an opportunity to pursue additional education, personal, but related projects, research, etc. There's no reason to simply sit there and vegetate. Personally, if I see someone in the situation doing crossword puzzles, I'd wonder whether I made a good hiring decision.
Regardless of the situation or environment, I'd expect an engineer to be productive, one way or another.
TTFN
Welcome to the government. The differences with the private world are night and day. You will have engineers who do nothing (like the guy thats been there 9 months) and others who work hard to make a difference. It also depends on the manager. Some managers try hard to give their people something meaningful to do, while others will let you hibernate in the corner wandering what to do. When I started with the government, I sat in my cubicle for 6 months before I was even given the smallest project. For a new employee this sends a bad message. You cant expect them to come in and run with the ball, especially when they dont know where the ball is. Maybe your manager is one of these types. We have not even had a meeting in our group since I have been here (2.5 years).
Most of my experience has been with the private world. The government is definately different. Projects move much, much slower due to all the peas in the pod. Procurment takes a minimum of 30 days, but usually more like 60 days. Paperwork is extremely heavy and the office politics are second to none. In my mind, government work offers more job security (usually) and more leave time. The engineering work can be exciting but it gets frustrating trying to get something done quickly and watching all the wasted money paying slackers and contractors who don't even come close to delivering a quality product or service. The government never fires anyone because the managers don't want to be cast in the spotlight so they just ignore these people and let them carry on with their boring selfs.
All in all, right now, I prefer private sector work because it is more satisfying and the office politics are not as ugly (although they can be depending on where you work). The leave time, however, is awesome but does not out weigh all the negatives.
I have heard that three years is the magic number for government employees. After three years in the government, many private sector companies will refuse to hire you because of the reputation of government workers. So, give yourself a little time to check it out but I would move on after a few years if you don't like it.
I see the crossword puzzles all the time, along with family photos on the color printer, digital photos being manipulated on government PC's, my neighbor talking to every family member and friend (all day long) on the governments dime, civil engineers and agricultural engineers put in electrical engineer positions (yes believe it or not), bonuses given for cleaning up fish guts, 2000 sq ft buildings (basically a house) which cost 1.6 million dollars (no basement either), contractors who abuse the governments kindness in fullfilling the terms of the contract (I could really go on about this one), etc. So yeah its a different world. It can really eat at you to see the wasted money, especially as a tax payer.
Most of my experience has been with the private world. The government is definately different. Projects move much, much slower due to all the peas in the pod. Procurment takes a minimum of 30 days, but usually more like 60 days. Paperwork is extremely heavy and the office politics are second to none. In my mind, government work offers more job security (usually) and more leave time. The engineering work can be exciting but it gets frustrating trying to get something done quickly and watching all the wasted money paying slackers and contractors who don't even come close to delivering a quality product or service. The government never fires anyone because the managers don't want to be cast in the spotlight so they just ignore these people and let them carry on with their boring selfs.
All in all, right now, I prefer private sector work because it is more satisfying and the office politics are not as ugly (although they can be depending on where you work). The leave time, however, is awesome but does not out weigh all the negatives.
I have heard that three years is the magic number for government employees. After three years in the government, many private sector companies will refuse to hire you because of the reputation of government workers. So, give yourself a little time to check it out but I would move on after a few years if you don't like it.
I see the crossword puzzles all the time, along with family photos on the color printer, digital photos being manipulated on government PC's, my neighbor talking to every family member and friend (all day long) on the governments dime, civil engineers and agricultural engineers put in electrical engineer positions (yes believe it or not), bonuses given for cleaning up fish guts, 2000 sq ft buildings (basically a house) which cost 1.6 million dollars (no basement either), contractors who abuse the governments kindness in fullfilling the terms of the contract (I could really go on about this one), etc. So yeah its a different world. It can really eat at you to see the wasted money, especially as a tax payer.
astructurale
Structural
I know what you mean! I worked as a co-op with the DOT and I could not believe what I saw. I worked 3 quarters: 2 in the field and one in the main engineering office. At all 3 locations laziness was rampant. Granted the field work was paving so there is not much to that compared to other projects though. In the office position there was one guy who was FREQUENTLY ASLEEP at his desk. I was appalled.
I did love the time off, and comp time I earned though!!
buzzp's advice is good, but in the meantime try to keep yourself as busy as you can. Use this as an opportunity to get paid to learn. Grab a few engineering books related to your field and delve right in when you have the time, which I'm sure you will. You can also ask your boss what he recommends you read or work on until your certification comes through and you actually have real stuff to work on. Hopefully, he will welcome the question and your initiative.
If you get bored and sleepy, which happened to me trying to keep busy reading, you could always pick up a technical course through a college nearby. Then you would at least have some homework to work on and be earning the credit for it too. While I'm on that subject, look into getting your masters or MBA while working with the DOE. It's the one of the few jobs you can have where you actually will have time for school, AND you'll still have those great benefits and time off. Great to do those things while you're just getting started in your career, because later on in life it's harder to find the time. (And it would fit into buzzp's 3-year rule)
Sounds like you're a go getter, so get out there and go get it!!!
I did love the time off, and comp time I earned though!!
buzzp's advice is good, but in the meantime try to keep yourself as busy as you can. Use this as an opportunity to get paid to learn. Grab a few engineering books related to your field and delve right in when you have the time, which I'm sure you will. You can also ask your boss what he recommends you read or work on until your certification comes through and you actually have real stuff to work on. Hopefully, he will welcome the question and your initiative.
If you get bored and sleepy, which happened to me trying to keep busy reading, you could always pick up a technical course through a college nearby. Then you would at least have some homework to work on and be earning the credit for it too. While I'm on that subject, look into getting your masters or MBA while working with the DOE. It's the one of the few jobs you can have where you actually will have time for school, AND you'll still have those great benefits and time off. Great to do those things while you're just getting started in your career, because later on in life it's harder to find the time. (And it would fit into buzzp's 3-year rule)
Sounds like you're a go getter, so get out there and go get it!!!
DaveVikingPE
Structural
" I came across a person who has been there for 9 months and has not got his clearance yet. I looked at his desk and it had piles of crossword puzzles, playing cards, and other things just to keep himself busy."
1. It is AMAZING the kind of people who manage to get themselves hired, isn't it?
2. Hear me: if you have a job that, literally, pays you to sit on your "posterior," why would you leave? There are good reasons, but only a couple of REALLY good reasons (e.g., you've been offered a position at a private firm with a 50% rasie in salary, you're starting your own company, full ride to grad school, winning the lotto; i.e., you have the financial means such that your financial risk is minimized).
3. Building on what astructurale says... Which would you choose: "crossword puzzles, playing cards, and other things" or opening up them textbooks, trade publications, buliding codes, gov't regs/manuals/etc.? One day, the Division Chief will come around and ask what you've been doing. If you don't know or give an answer like "I've been doing the crosswords all day" - sure, you won't get fired, but you will always be the guy who played the crosswords and garner a reputation as an idiot. Not only that, but an example of the "typical" government goldbrick. On the other hand, if you've got, just as an example, ASCE 7-05 on your desk and you're working through it, a) you look busy because you are busy, b) you are gaining knowledge that you can apply to the job (the time will come), and c) if you tell the Division Chief that all the other regs are tied to this Standard, so learning the Standard will make interpreting those regs easier - and that's what you're doing. Bottom line: there are ways to look really good during the downtime.
1. It is AMAZING the kind of people who manage to get themselves hired, isn't it?
2. Hear me: if you have a job that, literally, pays you to sit on your "posterior," why would you leave? There are good reasons, but only a couple of REALLY good reasons (e.g., you've been offered a position at a private firm with a 50% rasie in salary, you're starting your own company, full ride to grad school, winning the lotto; i.e., you have the financial means such that your financial risk is minimized).
3. Building on what astructurale says... Which would you choose: "crossword puzzles, playing cards, and other things" or opening up them textbooks, trade publications, buliding codes, gov't regs/manuals/etc.? One day, the Division Chief will come around and ask what you've been doing. If you don't know or give an answer like "I've been doing the crosswords all day" - sure, you won't get fired, but you will always be the guy who played the crosswords and garner a reputation as an idiot. Not only that, but an example of the "typical" government goldbrick. On the other hand, if you've got, just as an example, ASCE 7-05 on your desk and you're working through it, a) you look busy because you are busy, b) you are gaining knowledge that you can apply to the job (the time will come), and c) if you tell the Division Chief that all the other regs are tied to this Standard, so learning the Standard will make interpreting those regs easier - and that's what you're doing. Bottom line: there are ways to look really good during the downtime.
Sean82
You have some real good advice here.
One thing that has not been brought out is you will be getting a good security clearance. That costs money, and as you know, time. Follow the good advice were given, and in a couple of years, if you don't like where you are going, you can offer industry a couple of years of experience and a good security clearance!
You have some real good advice here.
One thing that has not been brought out is you will be getting a good security clearance. That costs money, and as you know, time. Follow the good advice were given, and in a couple of years, if you don't like where you are going, you can offer industry a couple of years of experience and a good security clearance!
I don’t know about US security clearances but for Canadian and NATO ones the key is in the adequacy of all the documentation. Best to hold off on submitting anything until it is all there or the follow up documentation will never catch up to the original application and will delay things.
Contact everyone who you put down as a reference or relative. Tell them that they may be contacted about this. It will lessen the surprise factor when the security people show up.
Warn your neighbors and others like former co-workers and professors. The clearance people will ask your references for other people who would be in a position to know you. This way they get past your hand picked references and get a picture of the real you.
It greatly helps if all your grandparents were born in the country. I know a woman whose grandmother was born on the boat coming from England. There was no documentation of her birth on the ocean, only the landing and immigration records, which did not correspond with the departure records in England. Her clearance took over 18 months to come through and was only an enhanced reliability one.
Another woman actually had relatives, including a grandmother, still living in East Germany (this was in the 80’s during the Cold War), she eventually left the military because she could not get a Top Secret clearance due to the fact that she had visited her grandmother behind the Iron Curtain, when she was a teenager.
Also the less you have moved and changed jobs or schools will help. Fewer facts to check and verify will speed things up.
After I left working for the Canadian military (I was a civilian employee as well.) I was working for a boss who was a micro manager and very insecure in his position (and had a lot to be insecure about as well). I had been referred to the security people because I knew a military officer who was getting vetted for a top security clearance. At that time the RCMP handled the clearances. A RCMP officer came to my work place to interview me. He gave me a business card which I left on my desk, knowing that the boss would be snooping to see who was there. Of course the boss was very interested in why the police was meeting with me behind closed doors. It gave me great pleasure to tell him that he had no need to know.
With the political and military situation as it is today having the clearance in place will make you much more employable in the private sector that deals with this area of government.
Make the best of the downtime, read any manuals that you are cleared to read, read all the textbooks and other technical material that applies to your field.
Just don’t get into the crossword puzzle trap or sooner not later you will have no market value outside the government.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Contact everyone who you put down as a reference or relative. Tell them that they may be contacted about this. It will lessen the surprise factor when the security people show up.
Warn your neighbors and others like former co-workers and professors. The clearance people will ask your references for other people who would be in a position to know you. This way they get past your hand picked references and get a picture of the real you.
It greatly helps if all your grandparents were born in the country. I know a woman whose grandmother was born on the boat coming from England. There was no documentation of her birth on the ocean, only the landing and immigration records, which did not correspond with the departure records in England. Her clearance took over 18 months to come through and was only an enhanced reliability one.
Another woman actually had relatives, including a grandmother, still living in East Germany (this was in the 80’s during the Cold War), she eventually left the military because she could not get a Top Secret clearance due to the fact that she had visited her grandmother behind the Iron Curtain, when she was a teenager.
Also the less you have moved and changed jobs or schools will help. Fewer facts to check and verify will speed things up.
After I left working for the Canadian military (I was a civilian employee as well.) I was working for a boss who was a micro manager and very insecure in his position (and had a lot to be insecure about as well). I had been referred to the security people because I knew a military officer who was getting vetted for a top security clearance. At that time the RCMP handled the clearances. A RCMP officer came to my work place to interview me. He gave me a business card which I left on my desk, knowing that the boss would be snooping to see who was there. Of course the boss was very interested in why the police was meeting with me behind closed doors. It gave me great pleasure to tell him that he had no need to know.
With the political and military situation as it is today having the clearance in place will make you much more employable in the private sector that deals with this area of government.
Make the best of the downtime, read any manuals that you are cleared to read, read all the textbooks and other technical material that applies to your field.
Just don’t get into the crossword puzzle trap or sooner not later you will have no market value outside the government.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
CarlPugh
Electrical
- Jul 16, 2002
- 142
How lucky can you get to just sit around and do nothing.
Don't wreck it by telling your boss you want something to do. Don't tell anyone that you want something to do, particulary anyone in your department.
Don't offer to help anyone who needs help. You could get stuck with doing part of their job.
Don't leave crossword puzzles or fiction books on your desk. If you are interested in them, take them to the restroom. The restroom is a great place to goof off, everyone is embarrased to ask what you are doing in there, or even check on you. Another great place to goof off if you are in a big company, is to take transportation (bus, car, bicycle or walk), it's easy to kill a whole day just going here and there.
Me, I've always been unlucky. Only have to ask someone what's he (or she) is doing and then there will be some discussion about the best way to do it and before you know what happens, you are assigned some sort of job.
Seriously, some groups are good and some are frustrating. It's more important what type of person your boss is than whether it's a goverment job or a private company.
Anyway have fun and enjoy youself.
Don't wreck it by telling your boss you want something to do. Don't tell anyone that you want something to do, particulary anyone in your department.
Don't offer to help anyone who needs help. You could get stuck with doing part of their job.
Don't leave crossword puzzles or fiction books on your desk. If you are interested in them, take them to the restroom. The restroom is a great place to goof off, everyone is embarrased to ask what you are doing in there, or even check on you. Another great place to goof off if you are in a big company, is to take transportation (bus, car, bicycle or walk), it's easy to kill a whole day just going here and there.
Me, I've always been unlucky. Only have to ask someone what's he (or she) is doing and then there will be some discussion about the best way to do it and before you know what happens, you are assigned some sort of job.
Seriously, some groups are good and some are frustrating. It's more important what type of person your boss is than whether it's a goverment job or a private company.
Anyway have fun and enjoy youself.
I wanted to add one more thing: don't necessarily blame the worker for doing crossword puzzles. If the guys situation was similar to mine when I started, your morale goes in the toilet pretty quick when your not involved with anything and you look around and see all the slackers. Maybe he decided it was time to join the club. I never would resort to doing crossword puzzles though. But hey, each his own. My way to pass time then, was to visit eng-tips where you can learn something.
I have learned some in the government but I learned alot more in the private sector.
Anyway, good luck and there is alot to be said about your security clearance - once you get it, your value to the right private sector companies increases significantly, as already pointed out.
I have learned some in the government but I learned alot more in the private sector.
Anyway, good luck and there is alot to be said about your security clearance - once you get it, your value to the right private sector companies increases significantly, as already pointed out.
![[evil]](/data/assets/smilies/evil.gif "[evil] [evil]")
Sean82
Geez! Get the clearance then move on if that's what you want. Don't relate what you saw there to what you might become. Be what YOU can be. Do not be what someone else is.
I read you as being a mover so do it. Give yourself
some time there and if nothing happens go elsewhere. Never burning bridges.
Wishing You and Yours a Great New Year
pennpoint
Geez! Get the clearance then move on if that's what you want. Don't relate what you saw there to what you might become. Be what YOU can be. Do not be what someone else is.
I read you as being a mover so do it. Give yourself
some time there and if nothing happens go elsewhere. Never burning bridges.
Wishing You and Yours a Great New Year
pennpoint
Sean82,
IRstuff is correct. Your ability to get a clearance (secret or TP) will soley depend on your background (criminal activity, moves, credit, and references). I just went through a clearance interview for a friend. They use retired FBI/law enforcement folks to conduct these interviews. My interview was with an exFBI agent and he was good at asking questions.
When I worked at a large defense company I had my secret clearance in three months but they only had to account for the fives years since I had previously held a secret clearance. I remember a guy there that took over a year before he got his clearance. I can only imagine what they dug up from his past. Don't hold back because from what I understand is they will dig up you past. But this defense company had us doing real work while we waited for our clearances. I would ask your manager for real work.
IRstuff is correct. Your ability to get a clearance (secret or TP) will soley depend on your background (criminal activity, moves, credit, and references). I just went through a clearance interview for a friend. They use retired FBI/law enforcement folks to conduct these interviews. My interview was with an exFBI agent and he was good at asking questions.
When I worked at a large defense company I had my secret clearance in three months but they only had to account for the fives years since I had previously held a secret clearance. I remember a guy there that took over a year before he got his clearance. I can only imagine what they dug up from his past. Don't hold back because from what I understand is they will dig up you past. But this defense company had us doing real work while we waited for our clearances. I would ask your manager for real work.
If the security clearance is so important that 9 months are sacrificed in order to do a thorough job, why do they let the "suspect" sit in a cubicle and be contaminated with classified information from day 1? Don't try to make me believe you can put your fingers in your ears and solve crossword puzzles at the same time...
epoisses,
When I worked for a large defense company the general work area was marked sensitive and didn't require a security clearance. The company had the power to clear people to sit in this area. But the classified areas were under lock and key which required a special access badge. The computers and servers were on a secured network for handling classified information. Any classified meetings were in cleared conference rooms. Security of classified documents was taken very seriously and rightly so.
When I worked for a large defense company the general work area was marked sensitive and didn't require a security clearance. The company had the power to clear people to sit in this area. But the classified areas were under lock and key which required a special access badge. The computers and servers were on a secured network for handling classified information. Any classified meetings were in cleared conference rooms. Security of classified documents was taken very seriously and rightly so.
It depends on the degree of security required. Most "Confidential" and "Secret" material can be brought into unclassified areas and worked on, so long adequate physical controls are in place. In my company, 95% of the work is unclassified and classified processing is restricted to a single room.
There are other programs where the entire program is classified, to the point where meetings with unclassified suppliers must be carried out in other facilities with false identities and bonafides. Those programs usually "park" employees waiting for clearance in other facilities that are unclassified.
Had a funny meeting when I was on the other side of the supplier table. We had a PDR with a classified customer and ALL but one of the customers that showed up signed in as "John Smith," representing "Self." Our nitwit BP guy then tried to get business cards from all the participants! Hah!
TTFN
There are other programs where the entire program is classified, to the point where meetings with unclassified suppliers must be carried out in other facilities with false identities and bonafides. Those programs usually "park" employees waiting for clearance in other facilities that are unclassified.
Had a funny meeting when I was on the other side of the supplier table. We had a PDR with a classified customer and ALL but one of the customers that showed up signed in as "John Smith," representing "Self." Our nitwit BP guy then tried to get business cards from all the participants! Hah!
TTFN
You have received some good advice, but I'd like to offer more direct answers to your question.
As people have already said, the time required to get your clearance varies, and is highly dependent on your background. It typically takes longest when you have lived in multiple places, or if inconsistencies are found. The investigators hate lying more than anything else. It is better to be honest about your past (DUI, drug use, etc.) than to get caught lying. Believe it or not, past minor criminal convictions and drug use will probably not prevent you from getting cleared if you are honest about them. But after you receive your clearance you could lose it for those types of things.
A word of caution: I have seen a trend lately where the DOE simply sits on your paperwork instead of denying your clearance. I think their hope is that you will get bored and walk away so they won't have to deal with the potential ramifications (i.e., lawsuit) of rejecting you. One guy I know waited 18 months before leaving.
After you hire on but before your clearance is granted, you will likely be sitting in an area with other uncleared personnel. How much meaningful work they have for you is dependent on your assignment. If unclassified portions of your future work can be carved off for you, you'll have some work to do. In some cases that is just not possible, and you'll be left doing more menial things until you get cleared. Much of your required training will likely be unclassified, so at least you can get that out of the way. Others have offered good advice on how to keep yourself busy when you run out of work.
As people have already said, the time required to get your clearance varies, and is highly dependent on your background. It typically takes longest when you have lived in multiple places, or if inconsistencies are found. The investigators hate lying more than anything else. It is better to be honest about your past (DUI, drug use, etc.) than to get caught lying. Believe it or not, past minor criminal convictions and drug use will probably not prevent you from getting cleared if you are honest about them. But after you receive your clearance you could lose it for those types of things.
A word of caution: I have seen a trend lately where the DOE simply sits on your paperwork instead of denying your clearance. I think their hope is that you will get bored and walk away so they won't have to deal with the potential ramifications (i.e., lawsuit) of rejecting you. One guy I know waited 18 months before leaving.
After you hire on but before your clearance is granted, you will likely be sitting in an area with other uncleared personnel. How much meaningful work they have for you is dependent on your assignment. If unclassified portions of your future work can be carved off for you, you'll have some work to do. In some cases that is just not possible, and you'll be left doing more menial things until you get cleared. Much of your required training will likely be unclassified, so at least you can get that out of the way. Others have offered good advice on how to keep yourself busy when you run out of work.
- Thread starter
- #18
I appreciate everyones input on the subject. So, from what I read is it beneficial to have a Top Secret clearance under your belt which will help you in the future with other employment prospects? Also they told me that you must renew it every 5 years. So do you have to go through this waiting period again at that time or is it just a seamless process.
Renewals are mostly pro forma. The only wrinkles would be if you traveled outside the US during that period.
However, you should know that if you do like to travel, a TS clearance may prove to be a hindrance, since there are more stringent rules about contact with foreign citizens.
TTFN
However, you should know that if you do like to travel, a TS clearance may prove to be a hindrance, since there are more stringent rules about contact with foreign citizens.
TTFN
In most cases you cannot move your security clearance from company (or government) to company without re-applying. It depends on the clearance and the type of movement (government to government may be easier than government to industry). The good news is that the clearance is usually granted much faster. Also, already having a clearance does give an indication to potential employers that you'll likely be cleared when working for them.
To add to IRstuff's answer about renewals:
What is sometimes referred to as "renewals" is actually just a reinvestigation that occurs every five years. Your clearance doesn't actually expire, so there is no waiting period. Basically, nothing happens unless they find something (like failing to report a reportable occurrence). Also, from what I've heard, the reinvestigations sometimes get pushed back as they usually don't have as high a priority as new clearances.
To add to IRstuff's answer about renewals:
What is sometimes referred to as "renewals" is actually just a reinvestigation that occurs every five years. Your clearance doesn't actually expire, so there is no waiting period. Basically, nothing happens unless they find something (like failing to report a reportable occurrence). Also, from what I've heard, the reinvestigations sometimes get pushed back as they usually don't have as high a priority as new clearances.
- Status
Similar threads