seeking advice from fellow engineers 2

[engr4life1979]

i am a junior/mid level engineer with approx 6 yrs experience and have been doing some municipal engineering work for a few years now. i guess i am at a point where i am being able to take and finish major design tasks on my own, and seek advice from my senior engineer to look over my shoulder to keep me on track, when executive decisions have to be made on the design aspects, and for overall QC purposes.

there is this senior person (12-15 yrs experience) that i take assignments and directions from and work with most time. fairly recently, i have started realizing that some of the decisions he makes on design processes or even has made in the past, are wrong and/or questionable, some even violating basic engineering principles.

i do not want to say that to him and offend or infuriate him, but i do fear the consequences since i have my fingerprint on some these projects as well. i have noticed that most these projects do not/have not gone thru rigorous agency reviews, maybe since they are federal and so they can bypass some strict norms?

i feel helpless because of this particular situation. can someone please offer some advice on how i should handle it? i really appreciate any insight in this matter. thank you in advance.

 

[jmw]

Well, hopefully you have read the thread Thread 765-296618 "How to deal with this type"
In amongst the reactions to the OP there are some useful pieces of advice.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Compositepro]

If you feel some of his decisions are questionable, have you tried asking his reasoning. You might learn something. Or he might learn something. From the way you write, I get the impression that you are timid. Asking questions does not have to be confrontational and is how everyone learns.

 

[hokie66]

Is it really that difficult to use the shift key?

 

[patprimmer]

Using the shift key does make for easier reading and therefore encourages people to help rather than just glossing over and moving on. Also a more accurate heading also encourages more to actually open the thread instead of just discarding without opening.

It is only because it is a lazy Sunday morning and I am laying about that I bothered.

Re the question it really depends on how you ask. If you respectfully ask for guidance and advice and help with understanding the decision it should do no harm. If it does enrage him, maybe that is because he is unsure himself and you make him feel vulnerable.

If he can't or worse won't explain, maybe you need to consider seeking new employment where you an get better mentoring.

If it is you who signs off on the drawings, you need to be sure in your own mind that they are correct as it will be your a$$ on the line if something goes badly wrong.

Regards
Pat
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[engr4life1979]

Thanks for your replies everyone.Sorry for not using upper case in my earlier post.

jmw: Thanks for the link, although i did not read it all, the thread is way too long. But you are right, it does give me an idea on an almost similar situation.

Compositepro: I have tried to ask him in the past, but i get the vibe that he is annoyed/enraged by that. I am not timid, but his behavior and reaction in the last few occasions have forced me to take a back step.

patprimmer: Please see my reply to Compositepro. I am not signing these plans. The person who typically does is both mine and his boss. So, even though my a$$ may not be on the line if something goes bad, I still feel bad about this whole thing.

I have thought about changing employment. The truth is I like and enjoy my current job, and do not want to switch immediately. Besides, I hear that the market is still not doing so well. I do feel it may be time for me to start looking around.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[photoengineer]

There is a point in time at which you have to let people make mistakes in order for them to get better. This is important to know both as an underlying as well as a manager.

If your firm releases a design that is bad, the responsibility won't fall on you. It will fall on those who sign the drawings and release the packages to your customer. And the cost to fix the mistakes will not fall on you, but on your employer.

You can learn a lot about how this type of trap has been fallen into, as well as a lot about how to error check work.

But from my own experience, you will have a very hard time convincing someone they are making mistakes, unless you are given that authority by those at your company.

 

[hokie66]

engr4life1979,
The fellow may have objected to your questions about his work, but you should persevere. That's what engineers do. It won't always be pleasant, but you have a responsibility to yourself and to your company to avoid errors. Good luck.

 

[dik]

Maybe he's a double amputee and he's using his nose to type...

Dik

 

[beej67]

If it's his stamp, don't be shy about doing it his way even if you question it. You'll get to do it your way once you're stamping the design.

Many conversations at my last place of employment started like this:

"Well, it's your stamp so I'll do it however, but if it were my name on the line I might consider doing _____."



I and my superiors both learned from these conversations.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[graybeach]

I think you need to think about the consequences of the mistake. If it is something minor like poorly written specifications, you might want to let it go. If it is something that affects public safety or could have serious financial exposure for your company, you should not just let it go. In this case your first line of action should be to inform others of the possible mistake, including this person's boss. Start by doing this subtly. Send out an email gently pointing out the problem, and copy some key people. You could ask a question like "Probably I am misunderstanding the design, but should there be catch basin at that low point...?" If the person's answer does not satisfy your concerns you could say, "It just looks like that area will collect a lot of water which could freeze up and become a real danger in the winter. Can you show me how the drainage works there..."

 

[controlnovice]

I like and have used graybeach's approach many, many times and it works wonders.

Question with inquiry.

It makes the questioning less confrontational. It may make you look naive, but for some interaction from some people, you will have better results.

Even though you have a better answer or solution, by following this type of inquiry, the person to whom you are asking will think he thought of the solution. If you need the credit, by all means, continue with what works for you. I just want results. Claim credit as a team later if it comes to that.

It really works well when someone replies, "Well, that's the way we've always done it here."

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

 

[jmw]

I think before following Graybeach's advice to the letter

.....and copy some key people.

I would first go on record direct to the senior and to him only to give him the opportunity to react and to respond.

If this doesn't succeed or doesn't yield a satisfactory answer, then you can consider bucking the chain of command.

Taking objections or criticisms of the senior engineer's work to management without first addressing these concerns to him, in whatever tactful or "information seeking" way you care to phrase it, is a risky proposition.

It may be less so for more experienced engineers but think how management will react if a junior/mid-level engineer starts sending them critiques of the senior engineer.

OK, Maybe 6 years experience buys you some respect and you carry enough credibility to do this.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[engr4life1979]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I am in a particular situation right now, where I would like for you all to weigh in and advise appropriately. I will try my best to keep the background narrative as short as possible.

I was recently tasked with performing a drainage design for a project. using the min. possible pipe size, cover, pipe slope etc, in elevation terms, my outfall invert is at 97 ft. the existing ground at that point is 111 ft. I looked up the geotech report and it seems like across the site the groundwater is approx. 7-10 ft below the existing grade, which puts it at approx elevation 101-104 ft. the municipal manhole we are going to tie into has an invert of 102ft, and is about 700 ft away.

Given the facts above, in my repeated discussions with this engineer, I tried to stress the fact that we are under groundwater, and under the target outfall invert at the municipal manhole. Given that, a wet well with concrete on all sides (including bottom) and a pump unit may be our only option to make this work. This particular engineer had a bottomless "sump pit" in his mind that will soak and infiltrate all water coming in.

I also mentioned that a backflow preventor on the outfall pipe may not be the solution, as there will always be a tailwater on the other side, preventing drainage from flowing out. He seemed to be on board with the concrete chamber to prevent groundwater from coming in, but was adamant on not using pump.

I explained to him that the backflow preventor is not necessary if we have a pump. without the pump, with the inv. out higher than inv. in, and no other outlet, there will always be standing water against the outer face of the backflow preventor, and essentially, it may never open. His explanation was that the water will evaporate, as this project area is relatively dry.

He mentioned he is going to size this sump pit by routing the water through the outfall pipe connecting to municipal manhole, using the orifice equation. I was frustrated at this point did not bother questioning any further. In my discussion with him, I made it clear that I am going to paint the correct picture, by taking his "orifice routing" water surface elevation as my drainage model's tailwater, and publish the results. That is what I did. My model results currently show HGL lines above top of grates for numerous locations.

After all this, I had this small contention that he at least agreed on the sealed concrete chamber from bottom to prevent groundwater inflow into it. about 2 hours before submission, i decided to open the storm details drawing for a sanity check, as he was working on it until about then. I noticed that he had the "bottomless" sump pit detail there, with the invert in about 6 feet lower than invert out, a backflow preventor slapped on to the incoming pipe, and gravel filled at the open bottom.

At this time, this design package has already been delivered to the client. Given that, what should my future steps be? I know that there is a possibility we may look stupid in front of the client, for which I feel bad and feel like I should do something.

Can anyone please offer me some advice on how I should go about this? I really appreciate everyone's help.

 

[PhilBW]

At this point I think you need to have a private face-to-face meeting with your boss and show him the above example. If he agrees with your position, ask him how you should handle similar situations in the future. If he agrees with the Sr. engineer, ask him to explain the technical details to you so you will understand how it will work.

 

[FeX32]

If you can provide documented calculations and present your results showing that he is wrong and the liability of the company is at steak then do exactly what Phil says with the documents.


Fe

 

[jmw]

Hmmm.
Always a difficult situation.
Your last post is helpful in clarifying the some attitudes and from your original post there is also some helpful information.

You say that you have now enough experience, you think, to take on more ownership of the projects and that at the same time, you have started to question some of his decisions.

I would leave the past decisions well alone. Bringing them up will signal to him that you are out to get him (that's how he will see it).

Stick exclusively to current projects.

When you adopt a contrary position to him and where you both have solutions on the table, there are two ways forward.

The first is:
"Here is how I thought we should do it and why I thought that, can you please explain to me why I am wrong."

The second is:
"You are wrong. This is the right way to do it. Let me explain why." (and I am making damn sure management knows it too).

You need to know what your end objective is and find the right path to it.
You also need him to understand your objectives and that you are non-threatening, maybe even you are positive benefit to him.

Forget the engineering.
This is about people.

There are many many people in positions of seniority who are far less equipped to do the job than their juniors or that their juniors do.
Its a fact of life.
It is also a fact of life that they are probably very good at defending their position by whatever means.

They can either feel threatened:
"This guy wants my job and he is going to suck up to management and brown-nose me out of it trying to show them he knows far better than me."

Or they can feel:
"At last I have someone who can do the job and I now have my chance to get into management."

Down one path lies the possibility of a pyrrhic victory, you show him up to be a dunce but management decide you are don't have the right "character/personality" to be a "team player".

There is also the chance that he can either do it to you before you do it to him or that he will so damage you that you really don't have much of a future.

At best they will replace him with someone else.
At worst, they may let you go, whatever happens to him.
never expect management to do what you think they should do. They will surprise you every time. And never ever expect them to make the right decision, except by accident. This is a "hope for the best but expect the worst" approach to life.

Or he can decide he can work with you.
If you don't threaten, he may feel that he can gradually let go and let you take that responsibility you think you are now upto.

Life is going to be one long succession of people in authority over you who can't do your job as well as you can. They probably also can't do their job as well as you could.

So, we already know your first objective, to be able to take ownership of these projects.
Maybe your next objective is to have his job. That's OK, but you may find the easiest way to get his job is if he helps you to get it. He'll do that if he thinks you are going to help him move up the ladder.

How do your actions and attitudes signal which of these is the option you want to pursue?

The safest place for this guy, you may feel, is out of the door.
In reality, management often don't take such extreme measures. As you go through life you will see time and again where deadbeats and liabilities, instead of being shown the door, are promoted to where they can't do too much damage or moved sideways.
The path of least resistance may thus be to get him promoted out of your way.

He may have an ambition to get into management (especially if he is worried he doesn't have the skills he needs for where he is) But till now he has lacked the team and team player skills to do well enough to get there.

Management judge him by the team's results, not by his personal skill at a particular role (and till now they appear to have been OK with what he has done).

In fact they probably really don't care so long as they make the end of the month figures. They don't like spats between their troops. They hate to have to make difficult personal decisions. They will talk about "team players" a lot.

So, if he can be made to feel safe, that he at last has an engineer in his team he can safely trust:
(a) to do most of the engineering, and
(b) who isn't trying to stab him in the back all the time,
he can start to demonstrate management skills by managing you and letting you do more of the engineering.
He then can demonstrate at a last having a team that really delivers.

What happens then?
Well he goes into management (and let's face it, there are plenty of bad managers so one more won't make any difference) and you get his job.

There is a catch 22 here that works for you.
To at last show he has management potential, he has to deliver better results from his team. But once those results start rolling in, management won't want to do anything, such as promoting him, that will affect those results.

He therefore finds it is necessary to persuade management that if he moves up that you are the right guy to take over and maintain the performance of that department - "I've taught him all I know.". And management will want to feel assured that he can, as and when and for as long as necessary, provide a hands off supervisory role.

Life is never going to be simple. Black and white. Right and wrong.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[engr4life1979]

Wow!!
jmw, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your reply, and more importantly, your insight. You have given me some very strong points to ponder about. If/when I do take the next step, I will surely revisit this post to update everyone.

Again, you taking the time in responding to me in such a great way is deeply appreciated. thanks very much.

 

[sundale]

"sealed concrete chamber from bottom to prevent groundwater inflow into it".

Does this work for buoyancy?

 

[engr4life1979]

Haha! Glad that you brought that up!

In one of my conversations with the decision maker (shortly after me scanning through the geo-tech report) my conclusion was the sealed concrete chamber with appropriate anchoring (based on anti float calculations), along with anchoring other drainage structures as necessary, in or under groundwater, and water tight piping.

Verdict: "not necessary..."
If you ask "why", I do not have an explanation, because I did not get any

On a side note, and maybe this warrants a separate post, I am pondering how to quickly identify/flag drainage structures and portions of pipe runs that are under groundwater, instead of doing manually. I am thinking of achieving this with custom programming, but if anyone has any ideas, they are very welcome.