shelve storage 16 feet high 1

[cdafd]

nfpa 13 2002

20,000 sq ft building

retail

9000 sq ft of shelve storage as defined by 3.9.17

spread out through the retail area

class I-IV commodities

Any certain section I should be looking at??

Is there a design criteria for this set up or look at the closetest thing in 13??

they are specing tyco k17-231 heads 16.8 k factor

 

[TravisMack]

I would look at NFPA 13, 2002:

12.2.2.1.1 Protection for Class I through Class IV commodities in the following configurations shall be provided in accordance with this chapter:
(1) Nonencapsulated commodities that are solid pile, palletized, or bin box storage up to 30 ft (9.1 m) in height
(2) Nonencapsulated commodities on shelf storage up to 15 ft (4.6 m) in height
(3)* Encapsulated commodities that are solid pile, palletized, bin box, or shelf storage up to 15 ft (4.6 m) in height

This states you can only get 15' of shelf storage. Also, the Design Criteria section of the K17-231 data sheet does not provide a criteria for Shelf Storage in excess of 15'. So, it looks like there may have been some special testing involved, or you need to dig deeper as to how they are getting 16' of shelf storage. OR, I may be totally missing the boat on something, which would be very possible for a Friday.

Travis

 

[stookeyfpe]

Travis is correct. Unless substantiated by fire tests I don't see how they can get above 15-0 AFF.

If memory serves me correctly, the 15-0 AFF value was the maximum reasonable height for storage shelves when the high piled storage fire testing was performed in the early 1980s. I'm still researching this one.

Unless subtantiated by fire test data, return the plans to the submitter.

Looking at the Tyco data sheet, this is a Special sprinkler. For example, if rack storage is introduced the sprinkler's spacing is limited to 10-0. I would confirm the spacing in relation to the method used to facilitate storage. Also, make sure the hydraulic calculation method matches the minimum number of sprinklers and minimum discharge pressures specified by Tyco and NFPA 13.

 

[cdafd]

thanks for the responses.

Waiting for about the third request for more design criteria from the consultant.

http://tyco-fireproducts.com/TD_TFP/TFP/TFP332_01_2005.pdf

if you look at the 2nd page of tyco data sheet it appears that there are some set ups for storage above 15 feet.

If they design to a higher standard say rack storage to 20 feet, same class commodity, would you say that should meet the demand of shelve storage to 16 feet???

 

[TravisMack]

Stookey:

Where did you get the 10' max spacing on the head. I didn't see it in the data sheet. I know that NFPA 13 allows up to 12' (12'6 in a 25' bay) for storage. I hope I am not missing something as I have seen jobs with these heads at 12' x 8' spacing.

cdafd:

I would stick with 15' being the max allowed for shelf storage without full scale fire testing. That is the limit imposed by 13 and I don't think this data sheet clearly specifies that the criteria is for shelf storage in excess of 15'. It is talking about rack and piled storage being higher, but not shelf. A quick call to Tyco may clear that up.

Good luck!

T

 

[cdafd]

A quick call to Tyco may clear that up.


that was my next step

will give up for today and fight another day

 

[stookeyfpe]

Travis:

See this data sheet.

http://www.tyco-fire.com/TD_TFP/TFP/TFP330_03_2006.pdf

This confirms our previous conversation that one literally needs to reference the SIN when discussing the design limits of sprinklers.

The suttle differences in the name of sprinklers can really cause confustion.

And I agree, I see nothing in CDAs data sheet that allows the height of storage to exceed 15 feet.

 

[cdafd]

so even though the data sheet under "Design Criteria" talks about "rack storage" "up to 25 feet high" you all are saying that would not apply to shelve storage to 16 feet???

are you saying the shelve storage to 16 feet is more demanding than rack storage to 25 feet???

 

[TravisMack]

I am saying that the heads have not been tested for shelf storage in excess of 15'. I don't really have any idea of which is more demanding. Does the EC25 allow for shelf storage in excess of 15'?

 

[trashcanman]

Who is "they" that is specifiying those sprinklers? Have you called "them" to ask how and why they chose those heads? Also, check with AHJ.

 

[stookeyfpe]

CDA

A shelf is different than a rack. First, the depth of a rack is not limited. A shelf's depth is limited to 30 inches. Secondly, a shelf is allowed to have solid tiers. Third, a shelf has no flue space. See the definition of a shelf in NFPA 13 and Annex A.

So basically you have a mechanism that can have multiple tiers with a limited depth and no flue spaces. When ignition occurs, one must assume that that the entire array can become involved because the sprinklers will only be pre-wetting exposure shelves because of the solid shelves and no flue spaces to allow water penetration.

Travis, nothing in the Tyco EC-25 data sheet permits its use for shelf storage > 15-0 AFF.

 

[cdafd]

HELP

new design
elo head

http://www.tyco-fire.com/TD_TFP/TFP/TFP342_03_2007.pdf

still trying to protect shelves to 16' 6"

proposal that I do not understand is

two design areas in side by side in the retail area.
area 1 .49/2000 reference chapter 12 and still using rack storage design criteria 12.3.2 2002
head spacing 91 sq ft

area 2 .6 / 900 reference 2304.2 ifc 2003
head spacing 80 sq ft this was for group a plastic limited amount

What's up????
1. after posting will call tyco
2. design submitted by a consulatant, so can it be considered perforamcne based design??????
3. now understand the difference bewteen trying to protect shelves verses racks.
4. any other help/ questions
5. seek third party opinion in design using 104.7.2?????

 

[TravisMack]

Ok..I think I have it sort of figured out. They are using the wrong head. It is required to use EC-25.

12.7.2.6 A wet pipe system designed to meet two separate design points — 0.49 gpm/ft2density over 2000 ft2 and 0.55 gpm/ft2 density for the four hydraulically most demanding sprinklers — shall be permitted without the use of in-rack sprinklers in retail solid shelved steel rack structure when the following are met:
(1) An extended coverage sprinkler with a nominal K-factor of 25.2 listed for storage occupancies shall be provided.
(2) Storage height shall not exceed 16.5 ft.
(3) Ceiling height shall not exceed 22 ft.
(4) Shelving structure shall not exceed 51 in. aggregate depth or 148 in. in height.
(5) The intersection of perpendicular steel racks shall be permissible as long as no storage is placed within the void space at the junction of the racks.
(6) The top shelf shall be wire mesh.
(7) A minimum aisle width of 4 ft shall be maintained between shelf units and other displays.

His criteria is still slightly off, but this may be where he is getting some of the information.

 

[cdafd]

TravisMack

the only sections cited are for the desgin of the system

12.3.2.1
12.3.2.1.2
table 12.3.2.1.2 class IV over 12 ft no in racks, and fiqure 12.3.2.1.2(d) (curve g) (apply fiqure 12.3.2.1.5.1-yes)

figure 12.3.2.1.5.3 70% for 16.6 high storage

12.3.2.1.5.9



how do you feel about the comments that a shelve fire may be more demanding/ or different developing fire than a rack, so the heads may not activate as fast and water may not get where it needs to go as easy??

thanks for the help.

 

[TravisMack]

12.3.2.1.2 is for NO SOLID SHELVES. You have shelf storage, which if I understand correctly is a solid shelf. As such, it doesn't apply.

I don't know who the consultant is that came up with this, but I still stand by my original assumption that they are wrong, or need to provide full scale fire testing. Otherwise, make the top shelf mesh and change to EC-25 sprinklers.

People make mistakes. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon. I do it all of the time

Whoever put forth this criteria on shelf storage to 16.5 feet simply selected the wrong criteria and the wrong head. You said they went with the 0.49 density. That comes straight from the section I posted above. I would just put it back on the "engineer of record" to show how it is compliant. If you need rationale, quote him the definitions of shelf and solid shelves per 13. Then show him the section I quoted above.

It means they will have to redesign the system, but it happens some times. It is not fun, but we have all gone through it.

So, I can't really say that a shelf fire will develop differently and/or be more demanding. But, I can say that NFPA 13 has distinctly different criteria for shelf vs. rack storage. It is pretty clearly spelled out what they need to do for shelf storage in a retail setting. They just need to follow 12.7.2.6. Nothing more or less without full scale fire testing.

I think the consultant may be digging their heels in trying to save face for a simple mistake. With all of the changes in fire sprinkler technology, it is very easy to make a mistake like this. Thankfully, you caught it in the early stages and it can be corrected. It is better to be caught now, instead of having 200k sq ft of piping up in the air.

Good luck!

Travis

 

[cdafd]

TravisMack

thank you for your insight.

I am trying to stay away from telling them to follow a certain section, because I do not want my name on the design.

This is a big box retail store and they have a set design that they expect the ahj to accept.


we have been beating this around for about three months and now the building is actualy going up so they are getting a little more serious.

I still need to talk to tyco about the ELO head to see if they offer any help, but seems like I need to send it back one more time to see what they do.

 

[stookeyfpe]

Good analysis Travis. I see many man lifts at night with lots of plastic sheeting covering up the racks on this job as the sprinklers are being changed.

 

[TravisMack]

You don't need to to offer the section. I have been involved with this type of scenario on more times than I like (contract drawings being wrong, but owner / GC expects them to be approved). If you have a good relationship with the AHJ, talk to him first. He is the one with the big hammer. Let him tell the consultant that they are wrong.

If you have any reviewing input or anything like that, simply state that NFPA 13 states shelf storage shall not exceed 15'. However, there are special criteria in 13 that may account for this situation. Make them go look for it. The funny thing is that if you look at the White Paper that Tyco put out on EC25 sprinklers, it talks about Bed Bath & Beyond and like stores for the same scenario that I posted above that was incorporated into 13. So, this arrangement has already been deemed appropriate for these types of retail stores.

You are going to come out the hero if you let them know now that the design is wrong and needs to be fixed. If it gets installed like you have described, it will be wrong. If some one later on is smart enough to catch it, it will require a lot of re-work. The EC25 has a 1" thread so all of the existing outlets would have to be plugged and new outlets drilled.

Worst case scenario would be for a fire to occur and the system not be able to contain the fire. Then, the industry has to deal with the bad press associated with a failed system.

I know you are in a very awkward position. However, you at least have the opportunity to save the owner a lot of money and potentially save the life of people in the store should a fire occur.

Good luck in your decision as to how to proceed. I don't envy your position at all.

 

[cdafd]

TravisMack

I R the AHJ

still need a little time to digest the info and look at 13 and the ec25.

any further thoughts will be welcomed

stookey any thoughts on the ec25 used for the shelve protection??

 

[TravisMack]

CDAFD:

Ok, you are in the awkward position. Again, I will state that it is better to question it all at this time instead of waiting until it is up in the air.

Like I said, people make mistakes. It is just part of life. Heck, I may be totally wrong on what I have stated on this subject. It won't hurt my feelings, and it won't be the first or last time I was wrong.

I understand not wanting to rock the boat. I am going to assume the consultant for this box retailer was a Schirmer, Rolf Jensen or TVA type company. I have done a lot of work with all 3 of them. They ones I have dealt with have been very receptive when I point out something during the shop drawing phase. Sometimes, they are able to provide a solid justification for what they did. Other times, they simply admit it was wrong and work to have the design fixed.

I would rather see the design changed now instead of reading a news headline: "3 people dead. Fire Sprinkler System FAILED"

Again, good luck! I don't envy your position.