shelve storage 16 feet high 1

[cdafd]

nfpa 13 2002

20,000 sq ft building

retail

9000 sq ft of shelve storage as defined by 3.9.17

spread out through the retail area

class I-IV commodities

Any certain section I should be looking at??

Is there a design criteria for this set up or look at the closetest thing in 13??

they are specing tyco k17-231 heads 16.8 k factor

 

[cdafd]

I like to rock the boat when it needs to be rocked.

I wish it was one of the name brand consultants, but it is not. I would feel a little better if it was.

I keep forgetting to ask if FM has any data sheets for shelve storage?????

 

[cdafd]

TravisMack

Do you happen to have a 2002 nfpa 13 handbook, if so look at page 466
The commentary in blue. it refers to 12.3 if there is shelve storage over 15 feet. I know that this is commentary only, but also look at a A.12.2.2.1.1(3)

 

[TravisMack]

CDA:

Ok, I see where you are at. But, I think if you go to 12.3 then you are going to need to look at criteria for SOLID shelves. All of the stuff in 13 refers to not having solid shelves. You basically need to add in-rack sprinklers at every level is there is solid shelves, unless you meet some very specific criteria such as less than 20 sq ft (I believe, going from memory here) and some strict criteria on flue spaces.

If they meet all of the criteria about shelves such as:

12.3.1.9 Solid Shelving.
12.3.1.9.1 Where solid shelving in single-, double-, and multiple-row racks exceeds 20 ft2 but does not exceed 64 ft2 in area, sprinklers shall not be required below every shelf, but shall be installed at the ceiling and below shelves at intermediate levels not more than 6 ft (2 m) apart vertically. (See Section C.11.)

12.3.1.9.2 Where solid shelving in single-, double-, and multiple-row racks exceeds 64 ft2 in area or where the levels of storage exceed 6 ft (2 m), sprinklers shall be installed at the ceiling and below each level of shelving.

The problem is the table they chose says no solid shelves:

Table 12.3.2.1.2 Single- or Double-Row Racks — Storage Height Up to and Including 25 ft (7.6 m) Without Solid Shelves

This is where NFPA 13 gets confusing. They mention what you can do for solid shelves, but do not provide any criteria that I have found for solid shelf densities. What I have done in the past is calculate the overhead at 0.3/2000 and then figure 7 heads on each of 2 levels at 30 gpm. I had this backed up by a local FM guy on a specific project. It was the best we could come up with for the existing arrangement.

However, based on what I think you have been provided, they are looking for no in-rack sprinklers and some obscure density.

So, back to the point. Either the shelves are <20 sq ft and they can be considered open shelves. Or they go to EC25 sprinklers and meet the criteria specified in NFPA 13.

I hope Stookey gets a chance to chime in here. He may have some other advice to offer based on his past experience in storage facilities.

Travis

 

[cdafd]

I did a Target storeroom and they had the shelves with solid shelves, I think they used the ec 25 head on that with no in racks, will have to go back and look at hose plans.

They actually did some fire testing to support thier design.

Will look at 12.3 and solid shelve issue

 

[TravisMack]

Of those that I am aware, Target, Sam's & WalMart all specify EC25 in their stores. Their specs all come straight from 13 or the EC25 white paper which is the same thing.

I believe that Lowe's has done some fire testing for their paint storage racks in the customer paint dept. Other than that, I am not aware of any fire testing for the major big box retailers.

Which store chain is this, if you don't mind my asking?

Travis

 

[cdafd]

TravisMack

would prefer at this time to say it to you in private

 

[TravisMack]

no problem. I understand!

Travis

 

[TravisMack]

CDAFD:
So what has been the final outcome on this project? Did it get accepted as is, or did it have to go back for redesign?

Travis

 

[cdafd]

TravisMack

I really have not had time to think it through, but have skimed it.

I am going to try to set down right now and read through chap 12, but I think I need to send it back one more time and have them address the issue between thier design for racks with no solid shelves and the shelves they want to install with soild shelves at each level.


So long story it will go back one more time.

do you post any on the ICC site, and if so by what name???

http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

 

[TravisMack]

CDA:

I have never used that site. I signed up and am awaiting "acceptance." I have put in the same user name: travismack

Travis

 

[cdafd]

I am slowly going through 12.3

shelves are 25 1/2 inches deep and 48 inches long

 

[TravisMack]

As long as they maintain the proper spacing between the shelves..I think it is around 4" at the "flue" spaces, shelves of those dimensions would qualify as open.

At least that is what I remember going from memory.

T

 

[cdafd]

well they are doing some 25 1/2 back to back shelves and about 20 feet run, which I read to throw them into solid shelve issue.
told them Table 12.3.2.1.2 NFPA 13 2002 applies to racks with out solid shelves

so either provide fire testing for design proposed or submit another design for solid shelves up to 16.5 ft.

 

[TravisMack]

GREAT CALL!

It is never fun to have your design thrown back at you, but I would always prefer to modify a design vs sitting on a witness stand explaining why someone's loved one died in a fire due to a poor system design not meeting the minimum standards put forth by NFPA 13.

Again, good job!

 

[cdafd]

New Wrinkle

Looking at all the documentation

1. shelves are only 12 ft to the top

2. They store on top of the top shelve 4 1/2 feet

Not sure how or if that matters

 

[LCREP]

So u have 16.6' of storage, not 12' storage!

 

[cdafd]

LCREP

Yes, But

The top of the shelving unit only goes to 12 feet.

There will be storage on top of that to 16.5 feet

nfpa 13 design can handle 15 feet shelving units.

so how does the 12 foot shelve units with 4 1/2 on top of that jive with nfpa 13

can the shelve design criteria be used since the shelves are under 15 feet????

 

[TravisMack]

CDA:

No, you have to go with the TOP of storage. Let's say that I have a rack that stops at 20' aff, but my product is in 10' tall crates. If I store that product on the top tier, then I have 30' storage.

You always have to go with the top of storage, not top of storage structure.

Another way to think of it: Would you allow ESFR sprinkler deflectors at 30' and storage to 29'6", even if the top tier of the storage structre was only 25'?

Good luck with your project there.

Travis

 

[LCREP]

As Mack said on the height.

The height of storage is always measured from the floor to the highest box. When I inspect warehouses I always bring a tape measure ( 30' Fat Max by Stanley) and a laser tape measure (about $100, mfg by Stanley). The laser tape measure is critical for ESFR and and plastic pallet and rack storage. You have to measure roof height and distance from height of stock to the roof. The greater the distance, from the roof to stock, the worst condition it is with plastics. Aisles, rack width, etc also play critical roll in determine if the fire protection is adequate.

 

[LCREP]

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