Shop Drawing Review - Retired EOR 2

[skired]

I've been approached by a GC I work with to review shop drawings for a 3 story office building which was designed a few years ago and the EOR has since retired/isn't reachable.

Would you take on a project like this without independently verifying the design (running calculations etc)?

Is there a legal/code issue with reviewing shop drawings not as the EOR?

How would you charge for something like this?

My initial thoughts
- discuss with insurance carrier
- contract with the client explaining that I would not be the EOR / taking responsibility for the design, I am checking the shops for conformance with the structural drawings as interpreted by me.
- Bill at Time and Material at a higher rate than I'd typically use


I'm curious to hear how others would approach this and whether I'm missing anything

 

[STpipe]

I can't really comment on how I would approach this, but one question I would have for you is, what if the shop drawings are proposing something that deviates from the structural drawings? Rejecting them would be the obvious answer, but what if the contractor comes back and says they can't build it without the modifications?

 

[Rabbit12]

Personally, I'm not sure I'd touch this. What value does reviewing the shop drawings by you add? Is there some sort of AHJ requirement that an engineer review shop drawings?

A capable GC should be able to just run this this.

 

[phamENG]

Legal requirements vary by state, but I would say that if you touch it now you become the EOR. So, if you do it, charge accordingly. That by itself might solve the problem for you.

Nobody is unreachable unless they're dead. There's probably something in the design contract that addresses this. If the owner's attorney sends a letter threatening to sue for breach of contract if they don't respond and facilitate the assignment of the contract to another firm, they'll probably get a response.

Best not to deal with it.

 

[rb1957]

Can you validate the original drawings ? does the EOR seal the drawings with a physical seal ? Can you be EOR for the delta over the original, or do you become the EOR for the whole damned thing ? If the latter than I think you need to revalidate the structure, but I don't think this invalidates the original building (assuming they are erecting a new building now.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[JAE]

1. AISC and other entities require an Engineer review shop drawings to verify general conformance with the original design and design intent. Constructing an office building without this review is not beneficial to the welfare and safety of the public.
2. As a licensed engineer, you can certainly review plans of another engineer to verify this general conformance.
3. STpipe's question touches on the fact that the acceptability of some deviations, minor or major, would require you to dive into the original design, sometimes quite deeply.
4. Even some small adjustments in the construction might require you to do some level of re-design.
5. As a result:
a) I'd inform your GCI and put in your contract the fact that this shop drawing review will take much extra time and cost than if the EOR was doing it.
b) I'd consider getting some type of letter of indemnity, although it may not do much good in court (you can't deny responsibility as an engineer)
c) I'd notify the retired EOR and see if they can be available (for a fee) to assist in explaining portions of the design to help you minimize time and costs.
d) I'd notify your insurance company to see what they say.
e) With the above items a-d all each resulting in some type of response - I'd weigh these and see then whether to proceed.

 

[JLNJ]

You might have a conversation with the AHJ and see if they have a policy for this.

I'd have an equal concern that the AHJ will want my seal on a Statement of Special Inspection or my seal on a "it all went in per the drawings" type of letter at the end. Those might give me more heartburn than shop drawing review.

 

[skired]

STpipe - that is a concern, my thoughts were to explain that I'd be reviewing for conformance only and any deviations might require me to double check the entire building design

Rabbit12 - To me the value is a third party (not the contractor or detailer) reviewing it. I've caught my share of wrong sizes / missing beams during shop drawings just by reviewing

phamENG - Good idea, I may advise them to try to contact the engineer through an attorney. Though what would assignment of the contract to another firm accomplish? Access to their calculations? Wouldn't I just be able to run my own calculations at that point and become the EOR?

rb1957 - it's a new building, I don't think I can be EOR of the delta

JAE - excellent advice, thank you.

JLNJ - Is a seal on a statement of special inspections or a letter saying it all went in per the drawings typical for you? I don't think those are typically required where this is located.

 

[JStephen]

Do the old drawings still work for a new building permit, or is there an "old" permit that is still valid? Has the building code been updated in the meantime?

 

[phamENG]

Though what would assignment of the contract to another firm accomplish?

Three things that I can think of:

1) It's a diplomatic way of telling him to clean up his mess. Why bother with the headache of negotiating the terms of assignment - which may cost him money - when he can just do the review and be done with it.

2) If he doesn't do it and chooses to assign it to you, it helps you save face. It shows the contractor and the owner that, while they may not like it, there's a lot more going on than you just glancing at some shops for them.

3) Again if he doesn't do it, it should give you access to all of his files and calculations. While I agree that you should do your own, having those may be an easier way of getting answers to why something was done (if they are well organize and annotated).

 

[dik]

I'm 76, and I do this nearly every day, and have for the last 3 years. I enjoy the variety of the work (occasionally, a lot of it is repetitious).

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Brad805]

dik, you are a rare bird.

 

[Aesur]

I have seen firms out there that do not perform construction administration as part of their contract and the contractor hire a 3rd party CA firm. I agree with that @JAE said and don't see any major red flags unless they deviate from the construction documents or something wasn't clear on the construction documents. To me this is in the same realm of SSI where you are comparing to the construction documents to confirm that it was built per plans; in this case you are another set of eyes on the shop drawings for general conformance, you have the experience to catch things the guy creating the drawings may miss. While it is best to have the EOR do the review, I don't believe there is anything that says a 3rd party cannot perform such services. I am however not sure how you would deal with this if you have questions about the design or something isn't clear and the EOR is unavailable. I would add language to your contract saying something along the lines of you are checking for general conformance to the construction documents and are not acting as the EOR and if something is not clear, additional services may be required.

 

[dik]

I just enjoy the work... sometimes a bit challenging, and in the last 3 years I've written about 850 SMath programs to help. The latest issue is where the EOR wants the steel fabricator to CJP weld a C section to an existing W section (not spec'd as such)... about 200' by two sides of a building. I'm just doing up an SMath program to accommodate it... I still need the loading from the EOR... The clearance top and bottom is just to check for adequate space to get in to weld... about 3"

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[271828]

Unless there's a ton of money involved, I'd pass. If for no other reason, you would probably find things that need to be changed. The GC would probably come back and ask you to redesign. It might not be feasible for you to do that, depending on what needs to be redesigned, and what else it affects.

 

[dik]

One of my projects about a year back was a 6 storey addition... depends on how busy I am...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik