Should I move on or stick it out? 1

[jonbmet]

I need some career advice.

Where I'm at in my career: I'm working at a consulting firm of seven people (4 of which are engineers). I've worked at this firm for ~6 months. I'm an E.I.T. and only one year out of school. I worked for my previous employer (a large testing company) for ~9 months. Before that I worked a paid internship as a cad operator and machine designer.

All of that said, I had planned on working at my current firm for the next few years. I currently work with several PE's and figured this would be the best place to work until I've earned a PE license myself. The work is interesting and I'd like to continue working with the company.

The problem is that I'm not being paid on a regular basis. Payday will come and I won't receive a check. The first time it happened the boss talked to me and said that he could pay me after the weekend. Now he doesn't say anything. I'm also not paid per diem when I'm owed it, and even though I declined health insurance the money has been withdrawn from each of my checks (This can't be legal, right?).

I don't want my resume to look like I'm hopping from job to job. However, I've been told that job hopping isn't looked down upon as much as it once was. So, should I cut my losses immediately and find another job? Wait this one out and look for a new gig? Or just deal with the current job until I've been there more than a year? Any advice is appreciated.

 

[DRWeig]

Go see a good employment lawyer.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

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[msquared48]

Sounds like the boat's alrteady rockin'.

I'd put on your life preserver if I were you.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[TheTick]

One missed paycheck means it's time to go.

 

[zdas04]

Getting paid is pretty important. Not getting paid is pretty high risk. Every company has cash flow that starts and stops more or less at random. A company that doesn't realize this and keep enough reserves to make payroll for god sake has so many other problems that they stand small chance of surviving for long.

I'd sit down with whoever is doing the payroll and try to straighten out the per diem and withholding. If you can't work it out with the person preparing the checks then there is probably something pretty awful going on.

I'd have my resume current and ready to send to the world before that conversation. If you don't get satisfaction I'd send the resume to the world.

If you decide to talk to a lawyer, make sure that you have complete records of what they've done and not done that they were supposed to/not supposed to do. Wasting a lawyer's time with partial data gets really expensive really quickly.

The job hopping issue is kind of messy. Many of us old guys will look at two resume's and assign preferences to the one with the fewest job skips. Trouble is that too many job openings today don't get multiple qualified resumes. If I'm comparing one guy to himself, then if he can consistently spell his name the same way he gets all kinds of brownie points. In short job-hopping used to be really negative, now it might be a tie breaker at most.

When I started, there was an expectation that as long as I got paid regularly and didn't get caught doing anything that would get the company on "60 Minutes", I would be there till I retired or died. MBA's got involved and decided that people were commodities that didn't deserve any more consideration than a bolt. When companies started going back on the implied contract of longevity, individuals stopped caring about it as well. Any hiring manager that ever questions your multiple jobs should get "and what is the duration-guarantee of this assignment?"

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[rowingengineer]

Have you spoken to your fellow employees, what is happening to them? Reason I as is that you need to have a better feel as to what is going on then you have. Quite often asking teh right people the right questions you can get a good feel as to whether you boss is a A-Hole or alternatively if the place is sinking faster than the titanic. while neither of these may affect your decision, it will help you decide how quickly you need to act.

If this was me I would be looking hard elsewhere but I would also be asking the guys around me to find out what is going on.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[SNORGY]

I'd be out of there the very second I didn't get paid. I don't get up every day at 5:30 am, shave and shower, dress, drive in, pay for parking, and blow away the whole day crunching numbers and drawing stuff until 6:00 pm just for the sheer love of doing it.

Are you a contractor or an employee? If the latter, then for your employer to not make payroll is inexcusable by any measure. If the former...it's a bit different, but either way, if there's no cheque, then neither is there any work.

 

[Latexman]

Did you see what happened to the Secret Service when they did not pay their . . . Stress Relief Engineers? It was a Bad day!

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[patprimmer]

If he is a consultant, then rent and payroll has to be by far his greatest costs. If he can't cover payroll, where are the incomings going. If there is insufficient income to pay payroll the business is in deep trouble.

In small businesses I know enough about, the owners always pay staff first then contractors then rent then incidentals then themselves.

Regards
Pat
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[jonbmet]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the advice and questions. They've really helped me think through my situation. I know most, if not all who posted, have 100x more experience than myself. I guess since not a single one of you encouraged me to stay I should take that as the biggest piece if advice.

To answer a few of your questions I am an employee, not a contractor. We actually work out of the owner/bosse's house...so there is no rent. Also, I have spoken to the other engineers. We're all dealing with the same mess and each has discussed jumping ship.

 

[patprimmer]

As this is not the ethics forum I will make a dodgy suggestion.

What might happen if all those owed money left to form their own business with someone competent in business management delegated to sending out invoices, collecting money owed and paying bills on time.

Heck you might even employ your current boss as sales manager on a commission only basis. Commissions to be paid within 30 days of customer invoice paid. Also the business manager must approve all customers and all orders.

Regards
Pat
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[Latexman]

Or, you could approach the owner for backpay and possibly some % of future pay in shares of the company. I wouldn't, but I don't know your situation.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[patprimmer]

Or, you could approach the owner for backpay and possibly some % of future pay in shares of the company. I wouldn't, but I don't know your situation.

Would you want shares in either a company who cannot pay it's payroll or one who can but won't. I certainly would not unless convinced that there where good but not obvious reasons unless the current management was replaced with no chance of regaining control.

Regards
Pat
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[Jboggs]

Voice of 35 years experience - get out now. And I say this based on just reading your initial post. You're dealing with unreliable people with a proven lack of integrity. If you're staying there for experience and knowledge, the lessons you are learning are the wrong ones. You need ethical examples, not those that cheat the little guy. A tip - you will probably have to sue them to get your money. Good luck!

 

[patprimmer]

The OP does not indicate whether it is lack of integrity or ineptitude on the part of the owner. He might simply be an incompetent businessman, but even if, still get out from under his control.

Regards
Pat
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[Latexman]

The OP NEEDS to decide what he is going to do. Find out why they are not getting paid. A stroke of bad business luck (too much risk). The owner is sucking the payroll up his nose? The accountant is running a Ponzi scheme on the side and needs cash? What? Then, can the OP help fix it! Does he want to help fix it? If not, find another job and leave! If so, find the problem and fix it. QUICK!

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[Jboggs]

My advice above was based on my own experience. Sometimes you can't smell a rat when you first meet, but very soon you begin to catch small whiffs of questionable activity. The more experience you have the sooner you can detect that smell. I was out of work once and accepted a VERBAL offer from an entrepreneur type that did a great sales job on me. Most successful entrepreneurs are a little eccentric so you expect some "unorthodox" behavior. I agreed to start even though he coudn't clearly explain what my exact duties would be, and even though his "secretary/girlfriend/wife" was out of town so we couldn't do the paperwork. (First clue.) My first day he told me I was the boss over an existing group of employees, but he wouldn't tell them that. (Second clue.) He basically just dropped me off and told me to just walk around asking people questions about their jobs. (Always a comfortable thing to do!) Learned a lot a weird things about the guy. (Third clue.) If he wanted to fire someone he would have another employee do it. He wouldn't do it himself. Nobody had a set work schedule, holiday schedule, personal time, or benefit plan. Occasionally VERY large bonuses were handed out to select individuals. Most employees were confused and they didn't really trust each other. The one thing that came through was that he insisted on extreme PERSONAL loyalty, rather than business ethics or personal integrity. I worked late one night educating myself on Pro-E, because he asked me to. I didn't have a key, and didn't have anybody's phone number, and couldn't lock the door on my way out. The next morning one of the folks that supposedly worked for me called me to tell me I was fired. I went over there and FORCED the man to deal with me face to face. He wouldn't. Scampered like a scared puppy. Worked there one week. Never got any employment agreement. Sued him in small claims court for one weeks pay. Had to get the state attorney's office involved. His first check to me bounced. Finally got paid for that one week's work 18 months later. Two years later he was in jail for defrauding the Air Force and intentionally producing faulty gyros. His company and the jobs of all those "loyal" people dissolved. How many clues did I need?

How many do you need?

 

[KENAT]

Depending on location you may not need a lawyer, if you have some kind of employment/labor board or similar.

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[bigTomHanks]

I'm pretty sure that if he is not paying you then you may be able to get unemployment on his dime while you find paying work. This all varies by the state that you are in so I would make a couple phone calls and ask what your rights are. Nobody should work without getting paid. I completely understand the situation that you are looking to tidy up your resume with some longer term work experience but for some it is not easy to get started out in engineering. If you don't have a connection into a good company or get lucky enough to land a job by just applying then your road to a solid engineering career may be a little bumpy. Just hang in there though and roll with the punches as they come and you'll finally end up at a good company or have enough experience to get out on your own.

 

[berkshire]

jonbmet (Mechanical)
Adding to Latexmans post
There are two types of employers in a situation like yours, those who cannot pay you, and those that willnot pay you.
First check with the other employees and see if everybody is being short changed. If that is the case then see if the boss is strapped for cash and is waiting for somebody else to pay him. This happens in hard times when payments drag out and banks are reluctant to make bridging loans. If the guy is up fron about it you may have a chance there.

The other type of employer is bad news and should be gotten away from as soon as you can do so, they will just suck you into a black hole.

I had the mis- fortune to work for one of these snakes, as a contractor for a short time, after I was laid off from General Dynamics, when they closed their San Diego facility. To make a long story short, they got six sets of floor beams for a C17 out of me for nothing, which they sent to MacDac certified as being produced under the fair labor standards act. And the owner of the company was laughing to me about the fact that he had done so.He told me that, if I took it to court, that he had enough money to outlast me.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor