Should I negotiate my salary? 1

[NewMechE4]

I've read some similar threads on this site that were started by new engineers that got a little tense, so I just want to say:

1. I know I am inexperienced
2. I'm thankful for my current salary
3. Money is way down on the list of things that matter to me, and it's certainly not as important as getting good experience and working on challenging, engaging projects.

That being said, I also don't want to sell myself short, and I've always heard that you should always negotiate because the worst that can happen is that they say no. But, I also don't want to seem ungrateful or ruffle any feathers before I even start my job.

Here's the situation: About 2 years ago I entered a 2 year training program as a mechanical engineer. I've been moving around to different departments, getting a feel for what the company does. Now I am looking to find a permanent position within the company. I just got an offer for an Engineer II- Stress Analyst position in our R&D department. I think it is a great opportunity, and it is pretty unusual for them to hire someone without more experience into this department. I did work there for three months as part of my training program, so they know me and are familiar with my abilities. I started at the company at ~$59.5k/year (didn't try to negotiate), got a 3.5% raise after my first year, and they are now offering me a 5% raise to enter this new position (~$64.5k/yr). Salary.com lists the median salary for an Engineer II in the area to be 69k/year, with the middle 50% receiving between 62k/yr and 78k/yr.

I wonder if the offer is a tad on the low side. Would it be unreasonable to counter with a 10% increase? Or maybe 8%? Or should I keep my mouth shut and just accept the offer? I was also considering asking for some more vacation time (currently have 2wks, which is the standard for employees that have been with the company less than 5yrs). Although asking for both more vacation time and more money might be excessive. Note, I would be negotiating with someone from HR who is also the coordinator of the training program I am graduating from. Any advice?

Thanks!

 

[gfdoug]

I'm under the impression that you should ALWAYS negotiate offers. Like you said, the worst case scenario would be that they say no. You won't ruffle feathers or get off on a bad foot if you do it in the correct manner. In fact, you may even show that you are a "go-getter".

I'm making the assumption that you're in a large company (due to the ability to travel for multiple years to different aspects of the company - but I could totally be wrong), so sometime negotation falls on deaf ears since they have the pick of the bunch (lots of applications and resume's coming in). So just know that you may not receive anything extra, but it's worth a shot!

Your best bet is to state it something like this: "Dear HR person - I just want to start by saying that I am extremely excited to have received on offer from [such and such] branch of the company. However, I've been doing research on competetive salaries in the area and I believe that with my current experience I should be receiving [x amount of dollars in salary]. I just would like to make sure that in starting my career here at [company] that I am compensated competetively with the rest of the field. Would you be open to:

1) Increasing my base salary to X​

2) Agreeing to a salary raise after X time to X dollars​

3) Increasing vacation time​

4) Providing starting bonus to help with the costs it will take to settle in to the area, etc...​

"

Pick any or all of the 4, it's entirely up to you. Every job I've ever accepted an offer from I have been able to negotiate the offer on - starting bonuses, increased salaries, etc... Also, I would do this in person (or over the phone) if it's available to you. Your tone should be requesting, not demanding.

Best of luck in your career!

-G

 

[GregLocock]

"Like you said, the worst case scenario would be that they say no." No, that is not the worst case scenario by a long chalk.

A moderately bad outcome would be tat you get a rep in senior management as an ungrateful little brat. When you are on a career progression inside a company my opinion is that you have no 'hand' to use a Seinfeld ism

http://theseinfelddictionary.com/2008/02/22/hand/

until you are a net positive for the company, and someone with 2 years experience is probably way down the list of net contributors.

Bear in mind the salary survey you looked at lumped all eng 2 together whatever their age.

You should expect big jumps in the next 4 years if you are good. With much the same work history as you my pay doubled in the 4 years of having a job, as opposed to a training rotation. That's unusual now, but then i started on apprentice wages.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[desertfox]

Basically say nothing and catty on getting experience.

 

[glass99]

Greg is correct that the worst case is much worse than them saying no, but you should not let that alone stop you. Thoughts:

- $65k is not bad for two years of experience.
- Learning to be proactive about negotiation and dealing with people is a good habit to learn early. Part of that is sometimes you are going to get swatted down for being too greedy, and learning to preserve your relationship when that happens will be valuable.
- You can't always rely on the boss to recognize awesome work with a raise.

 

[KENAT]

"it is pretty unusual for them to hire someone without more experience into this department"

"offering me a 5% raise to enter this new position (~$64.5k/yr)"

"Salary.com lists the median salary for an Engineer II in the area to be 69k/year, with the middle 50% receiving between 62k/yr and 78k/yr"

Ok, so despite being on the low side for experience, they are offering you a position with pay above the 25th percentile for your classification.

Many companies have a policy (ridiculous as it is to our understanding of mathematics as engineers) that they don't want to pay folks above median pay for their classification.

So it looks to me that the offer you received is eminently fair and reasonable, especially as the numbers on Salary.com always looked a little high to me.

Doesn't mean you can't ask for more but as Greg points out, no isn't the worst thing that can happen.

However, I'm chronically risk averse when it comes to my employment so take the above with appropriate qty (pinch?) of salt.

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[Triangled]

I think it's all about strong engineering experience in the early years, and this means especially outstanding mentors.
Pushing paper in another department for more money is a very short term engagement ....not at all saying this is what you have...not at all.
Even a little less money, but working for an outstanding mentor.....is worth it in the long run.

But negotiations are good too, absolutely!

Two years in, I'd choose a mentor over money.

 

[itdepends]

When you're negotiating salary for a new job- you have something the new employer wants- your skills, and they have something you want- a job. The negotiation is a measure of how much they are willing to pay and you are willing to accept for that position.

The wrinkle in this one is the company also has something extra- you're current job. What happens if you don't come to an agreement? Do you keep your existing role? What does your current contract say about your training program? Particularly when that program is finished.

As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"

 

[geesamand]

One of the biggest factors in salaries is years of experience. Love or hate this fact, experience cannot be short-cut and it matters. This fact is as persistent and annoying as entropy. Consider the median age/experience level of those in that position, and if you're lower than that level, then the median is probably a reasonable upper limit.

Also how large is the company you work for? Larger companies tend to empower less, have more management structure, and pay more. That affects things significantly as well.

I think "hard" negotiations when you're in a new role and first full time position are not necessarily the best start. I would talk to your manager / HR rep to get the answer to: what can I do to add more value to the company and justify a higher pay rate? Good managers want to develop their employees and represent them monetarily - they won't track the data or do the hard work for you, but they should help structure your development and negotiate for more money on your behalf.

David

 

[moltenmetal]

I know from our own local salary survey that all the on-line salary.com type tools are very high in their estimates relative to the real, measured salaries in the area. Frankly I don't know how they obtain their data, or why they choose to report data that is so significantly out of step with reality.

$65k for 2 yrs experience? I think you're lucky. Asking for more would be ungrateful, but here's a strategy that might work for you. Ask where the figure came from- what its basis is. If they say, "None of your effing business!" or "It's more than you're worth!", then you can back off of course. But they may share some of the underlying data that they use to set salaries, which may make you more comfortable with the offer, as well as providing information for your next salary negotiation. It will also show them that you're not motivated by a raw desire for money but are rather more concerned about fairness, which an employer cannot fault you for.

 

[TheTick]

At the start of your career, you need to focus more on getting the right type of experience and training. If you want to negotiate something of value, negotiate for position: training, educational opportunities, work assignments, good supervisor or mentor.

A few extra vacation days will go a lot further toward improving your quality of life than a few extra dollars.

 

[1gibson]

It's a good offer, personally I'd nod, smile, and take it. Consider that you probably can negotiate and they will give in, because they don't want to have wasted 2 years training and then immediately lose you. May not have anything to do with your abilities, more a need to validate the results of the training program, especially if it is a new program. You've got a good hand right now, but it might be more luck than anything else. Don't overplay it.

The worst case is not them saying no. If you do negotiate a better offer, that doesn't mean you're out of the woods. Sure you can be as polite as you want, but you're still taking advantage of the situation (as far as I can tell) and that will not be easily forgotten.

And don't believe everyone who says "your only chance is to negotiate when you start." There is always room for negotiation if it can be justified based on increased responsibility, workload, or quality of work.

 

[zdas04]

Like moltenmetal says, ask them what the basis for the raise amount is. This opens a conversation that is way more useful than a negotiation. They might say that they have HR guidelines that limit the amount they can offer for a transfer in grade. They might say budget cap. They might say "it's a nice round number". They might say "we really cannot discuss that".

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[SNORGY]

I would take the offer as it stands now, work for six months, earn some brownie points, and then pick your time and pick your battle at the beginning of Q3 2015. It's actually not that bad an offer.

 

[GHartmann]

Negotiating can be tricky. I once negotiated myself right out of a job offer. Fortunately, I still had my old job and they did not know I was "looking" elsewhere.

A big factor in the salary comparisons will be geographic location. For example salaries in California and the NE will be higher due to cost of living; salaries in the Gulf Coast area MAY be higher due to demand.

You seem to have a fair offer. However, getting a large corporation to change their vacation policy as a "single exception" may be a fruitless effort.

 

[EdStainless]

Another way to approach the subject is to ask about the path forward from this new position, and explicitly ask about both job responsibilities and pay. By asking you accomplish a couple of things.
1. You let them know that you are paying attention
2. That you are thinking in terms of a carrier
Be advised that they may not have a path or plan. If not then this is something to take up with your new boss. On critical factor at your stage is what ongoing training and schooling you will be getting. How often will they send you offsite for special classes and things like that.

I wouldn't ask for more that this point, but I would send a signal that you are concerned.

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Plymouth Tube

 

[brownplayboy310]

Always ask for more money, anyone who doesn't is looked at as a pushover. Also remember that your future increases down the road in this position will be based on this starting point. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, just make sure that once you start working you are earning that extra money by doing the same quality of work (and hopefully better) than other people holding the same title.

 

[1gibson]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease, but if it squeaks too soon or too much, it gets replaced.

 

[KENAT]

Or, as in this case it's a 'new wheel', do you even install it at all?

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[NewMechE4]

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. It's good to get some outside perspective. I decided to accept the job offer as-is. At this point, I would be asking for money almost entirely based on my future potential as an employee. It makes more sense to learn as much as possible, complete some quality projects for the department, and then consider asking for a raise using my performance as justification. I don't want my boss to regret offering me the position, especially considering I'm probably under qualified to begin with. Also, I think this position puts me exactly where I want to be in terms of my future career path, and I'll have a great mentor and manager. That's probably all I really need to worry about at this point.

Ask where the figure came from- what its basis is. If they say, "None of your effing business!" or "It's more than you're worth!", then you can back off of course. But they may share some of the underlying data that they use to set salaries, which may make you more comfortable with the offer, as well as providing information for your next salary negotiation. It will also show them that you're not motivated by a raw desire for money but are rather more concerned about fairness, which an employer cannot fault you for.

Thanks for the advice, that sounds like a great way to start a discussion about salary without flat out saying, "Give me more money." I played it safe this time, but I think I'll use this in the future