Should I stamp my own work as an Employee (Structural Engineer)??? 9

[guanorican]

I'm being asked by the Director of Structural Engineering (My Boss) to stamp my own work and was wondering what has been your experience in the field. Is it normal practice to stamp your own work even though you are a Mid Level Structural engineer. In the past my boss would stamp the work but I recently got my license, hence the change.

My thought is I shouldn't be put into this position. Isn't this the reason the director of a department gets payed what they get payed? To take the responsibility of stamping all the work that leaves the office among other things... I understand that I'm covered under the firm's insurance policy but I still think I'm undertaking a lot of responsibility (which i don't get payed for) in the event of something going wrong. What happens if 5-10 years from now something goes wrong and my name is on the contract drawings? I could be working somewhere else and be brought into the legal fiasco...

Your thoughts?

 

[EngineeringEric]

In our firm we all seal our own work. You are an Engineer, if you are not confident in your work (and do not be embarrassed by this) then do not seal it. You are compensated for your responsibility, you are paid as an Engineer correct? If you want a raise in salary between the pre-PE to post-PE this should be discussed as it is 100% justifiable. But if you think that risk is equal to compensation this is an unethical road not worth exploring (I am not accusing you of this, I have a tendency of stating something that is misinterpreted, I should look in this )

And you are correct that if there is an issue with your design in 5 years and you are gone it will get legally and time complicated. So don't make mistakes!

 

[guanorican]

Thank You for your response EngineeringEric. I meant to include that I'm perfectly confident in the work I do and will never let something go out of the office, with or without my stamp, which I don't feel perfectly confident about. The other engineers in my department have told me that they were never allowed to stamp their own work at previous employers and I was just curious what has been the experience of other structural engineers in the field.

Thanks again Eric!

 

[rb1957]

consider your boss might be doing something in your interest ... ie now you're licensed and stamp drawings now maybe you're elligible for a higher position (lead, chief, guru, ...) ?

agreed, if you stamp the drawings you become exposed if something goes wrong and lawyers are called in. It is probably well worth checking that your company's insurance policy does cover you (i'd expect that it does). and that it covers your actions as an employee even after your employment ceases.

one thought, your boss, as a director, is clearly an agent of the company. you as an employee, not so much. not sure where that goes ...

btw, your boss is paid for lot's more than stamping drawings. and if you did the analysis, or checked/approved it, why be hesitant about stamping it ?

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[dhengr]

Guanorican:
There is damn little glory in stamping plans, your own work or that of others, it’s mostly potential headaches, but someone has to do it, in many markets. You should get compensated for this extra responsibility and the company should provide the proper liability and E&O insurance to protect you. You are not expected to be perfect or infallible, but you are expected to perform within or above the normal stds. of our profession. Obviously, this is something you have to work out with your boss, do they trust your abilities, you must be confident in your own abilities, and in your ability and experience level and engineering judgement to watch over the work of others, etc. You must develop your own oversight and checking (plan review) process, check lists, etc. You will get to know various members of our team and know what to look at for each of them, based on their experience and abilities. Again, it is kinda a thankless job, but someone has to do it, and you should certainly have that much confidence in your own work.

 

[steellion]

I think in the spirit of what the engineering stamp represents, the project engineer that does/oversees the majority of the work should be the one to stamp the drawings. I also recognize that at several firms (including my current employer), the big boss ends up stamping everything. This is a generally accepted practice, though the boss shouldn't just be blindly stamping everything on his desk, he needs to know what's in it (and it is in his best interest, as he assumes liability).

Make sure you are covered by your company's insurance plan, but if I were you, I wouldn't make too much of a fuss about having to stamp your own drawings. It will make you seem insecure about your own design. Like rb1957 mentioned, look at it as a good thing: the company trusts you to stamp the drawings, which means your level of responsibility is increasing.

 

[kipfoot]

I think you should go with your instinct here.

There are two main questions, in my opinion:

1) Are you being fairly compensated for sealing the work that goes out under the company's title block? There is additional liability with this. If you received a big raise for recently earning your PE license, then perhaps sealing documents was part of management's expectation. If not, then it's time to talk over their expectation and what you think it's worth in terms of dollars (or the currency in your locale). I think a salary bump is justified with a P.E. whether or not you seal anything.

2) A professional liability insurance policy probably covers employees working within the scope of the job. I would think that it's your right to review this policy yourself and determine whether you feel the firm has adequate coverage. Rhetorical questions: what's the yearly constructed cost of design work? What's the coverage amount? What were the contract provisions for this project that might affect liability? Would the coverage be used up if another project went sour? Is construction administration included in the scope of work?

There's a few slightly helpful articles at nspe dot org. search "Liability."

This research and discussion should be done well before a project needs to go out the door. It's worthy of careful consideration by you and your employer.

And, congrats on the P.E.

 

[PicoStruc]

Stamp is used to authenticate the document (a.k.a Mady by engineers)

You are still responsible on the design EVEN IF YOUR NAME IS NOT ON THE DRAWING !!!

 

[aaronPTeng]

guanorican
I agree with the posts above, 2 items to check

1) Ensure the company PI will cover what you are doing, and not sure about the rules in US but in AU even if you are signing drawings the directors are the ones held responsible from a financial perspective. I have only seen one case when an employee has been held responsible in AU and it was 35 years after the incident and all directors/ senior staff/ everyone else remotely involved on the project had died. So the only one left was a junior staff member working on it. Besides the PI in AU you can be taken to the institute of engineers here if you make a mistake and they can take your charted status, membership away from you etc,

2) To be at this level you should be compensated for the increased risk. Although we are always responsible from what we do from an ethical point of view the company you are working at is making profit based on your work and signature. You should be paid for this.

"Structural Engineering is the Art of moulding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse, so as to withstand forces we cannot really assess, in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." Dr. Dykes, 1976

 

[aggman]

As far as responsibility you are responsible with or without stamping the drawings, with or without a P.E. Lawyers will hunt out everyone involved, even if you are no longer employed so you can't hide from it. It's just the nature of the beast. I believe the person stamping should be the person who did the design, irregardless of their position in the company. That person ultimatly carried the decisions and are the most intimate with it. I can review one of my employees work and check it and change it until I am comfortable with it, but i'd rather they stamp their own work with my input and review. It raises the bar on the employee and makes them take ownership of the design ultimatly. You should be named on the E&O policy and be aware of the policy limits or the policy should state that all employees are covered under any item sealed on company drawings and letter head. You should also be clear in what the E&O policy covers and doesn't cover. It can surprise you on the empty coverage areas. We also sign hold harmless agreements with all our P.E. employees just to give them the satisfaction that they will not be counter sued by us in the event of litigation and that we will defend the employee in any suit where they are named directly. To me any engineer should have this even if they are not licensed or stampling the drawings. When the lawsuits come out they name directly ever possible person they can find. It's the shotgun approach trying to get settlements (even if they are small ones) in order to keep from having to defend a case even if its BS. Many owners may not agree with this, but it's the right thing to do. Ultimately you have to understand that most litigation is about money and your pockets are generally pretty shallow compared to the company that you work for. Lawyers will generally go after the big money (business and insurance companies).

On a side note if for some reason you are working for a company that does not carry E&O insurance I wouldn't sign or seal anything. Then you will be left on your own if something happens. Also be aware that if a company stops coverage you suddenly become uncovered for something designed even when they had the coverage. If a company gets new coverage be sure that the policy covers back to some earlier date, otherwise you can be uncovered on those as well. It's a lot to understand, but if your boss wants you to stamp the drawings you should be brought up to speed on your exposure and risk.

 

[cvg]

Also be aware that if a company stops coverage you suddenly become uncovered for something designed even when they had the coverage.

and if the company goes out of business, coverage is stopped and you will not be covered. In addition, do not expect your new employer to take on liability for that past work, they will not do it and they probably wont defend you either.

So, if you can get your boss to stamp your work, by all means let him.

 

[Hokie93]

Drawings, specifications, reports, and any other professionally sealed documents should be sealed and signed by the engineer in responsible charge of the work. This is the basic approach in every jurisdiction in which I am licensed and, as far as I know, universal across the United States. Most state rules/regulations or statutes provide a definition of "responsible charge", or similar term, so the engineer can determine for himself/herself if they should be signing the document in question. Your boss, simply because he/she is your supervisor or superior, should NOT be sealing and signing professional work. The boss should only be sealing and signing such work if he/she was in responsible charge of that work. Additonally, drawings or other sealed work can have more than one seal. In most states, if two engineers shared in the production of work, the seals of both engineers should appear on the document.

 

[Ron]

You have to be kidding!

You spend 8+ years getting licensed and now you're complaining that you have to use that license? Yes, you should be compensated for your responsibility. No question..... however; you most likely have an implicit indemnification by your employer....they pay for insurance to protect the company against YOUR errors and omissions. If you want a raise for signing and sealing, would you also like to pay a part of the professional liability insurance fees? Think about it.

 

[JLNJ]

My whole career I have worked at mid-sized firms. My philosophy has always been that I prefer to sign and seal my own work. It does not scare me, and I like to believe that I produce work of the same quality whether it gets sealed or not.

If you want to be the Structural Engineer of Record (and why wouldn't you?) you need to be in responsible charge and you need to wield the seal. When I list my experience, I don't list jobs I had some role in, I provide projects for which I was the EOR who sealed the drawings. It's a subtlety lost on most, but it is important to me.

As for the lawyers, my limited experience tells me that they most often don't go after individuals who work for a larger firm. Not only are an individual's pockets not as deep, but I believe there is case law which likely protects employees. I suspect this varies by State and by incident.

 

[Triangled]

My first boss, on old time SE, one of the early presidents of my state's SEA, opened his desk drawer and lifted out his seal, 'this is what you want', he said. I was thrilled to seal my early plans, and basically still am... :-D

 

[AELLC]

I got my registration long ago (1983) but not once, as an employee, was I ever asked or even allowed to stamp drawings and calcs, EXCEPT when I was running a remote office for companies based in other states. The out of state Principals had a stamp for the state where I was located, but that would have meant a lot of extra Fedex.

I actually preferred it that the boss or a Mgr was stamping drawings. I found it amusing that frequently, a Drafter who was proficient at forging the Bosses' signature, did the honors.

In fact, when the Boss actually stamped drawings, he rarely even looked at them or the calcs. (More than one company, in fact most)

That is why it is necessary for such companies to have plenty of E&O insurance.

 

[rowingengineer]

Ron has nailed the response, I wanted to write something similar after reading the first post.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[kylesito]

What did you get your PE for then? The extra responsibility or pretty letters?

I don't get the argument about being paid for responsibility. Are you making more as a PE than you were as an EIT? If not, then you need to have conversation with your company or look for a new position. Use industry averages and things like the ASCE salary survey to evaluate your level of compensation compared to the industry. If it's more, then you are being paid to handle that. Maybe up to this point you were being overpaid in the company's mind.

But unless you have the word "President" after your name, you may not find yourself getting rich from stamping plans. That's what we do. I make more than many of my friends in other fields with similar levels of experience. But it's not as though I am rich because I stamp drawings.

Sorry, don't get the hesitation. This is what we do. I would never want to do something I wasn't willing to stamp and the minute I lose sight of this responsibility then I will probably retire.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[CELinOttawa]

I have an odd view of stamping, come to as a result of working in a small (very old and long running) family firm for my early time as an Eng., followed by mid size and enormous multinationals and government. My complex mix of experiences has boiled down to one thing:

The use of your stamp should be your ultimate goal. If it is your ultimate goal, you should be compensated accordingly. If you are to stamp, you must be PERMANENTLY covered for E&O. Whoever gains most from your use of the stamp should pay for E&O.

 

[guanorican]

Thank you ALL for your response. You have provided me with some insight into the topic which I had never considered. That being said, I believe the conversation got a little out of hand and I guess I only have myself to blame because I wasn't very clear in my original post. My hesitation to stamp drawings has never been because I am not confident with the quality of my work. I’m perfectly capable of doing the type of work I do in my firm. Just as an FYI the license I was referring to was the SE which for those of you who have sat through the SE exam will know that you cannot pass the test without having a good understanding of what is Structural Engineering (at least that’s what I think). Don’t get me wrong, I still have A LOT to learn and I’m not trying to sound above anybody. I’m only 5 years into this career and look to people like you for guidance and knowledge of the field.

After reading your response I have to say that I might be leaning a little more towards being ok with stamping my own drawings but not 100%. These are my final thoughts:

• Since passing my SE I have not received a pay bump which I feel I definitely deserve (my starting salary was very low) I already talked to by boss about this and I was told “its coming”. Again if I’m compensated for this added responsibility then I might be ok stamping my own work.
• I’m really concerned with cvg response "and if the company goes out of business, coverage is stopped and you will not be covered. In addition, do not expect your new employer to take on liability for that past work, they will not do it and they probably wont defend you either."
• I will definitely review the professional liability insurance policy before agreeing to stamp my work.

As a final comment, my intentions of posting this question was not to get responses of “what are you scared of”, “you got to be kidding me”, “do you know what you are doing” etc. I was just curious to learn what is considered normal practice in other firms.

Thanks again!