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Side Jobs, non-ethical? 2
- Thread starter l3city
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BrunoPuntzJones
Materials
I think there was a thread on this topic awhile back. I'm too lazy to find it right now though. You might want to look for that.
Isn't this post basicall the same as your other post?
Working for other Enginners/Architects after work
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Working for other Enginners/Architects after work
thread765-160121
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
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This topic does come up alot and always seems to spark alot of debate. I know some out there feel any side work is unethical and that's fine. I do side work on occasion and I think that full disclosure to all parties is key.
My boss knows about all my side jobs. I actually pay a percentage of the fees I collect on side jobs to my employer and in exchange use the company title block and am insured by the company. Any side job I feel is too much to do on weekends or in the evening goes to my employer. I still do the work.
The small jobs I do on the side are for business relationships I developed before coming to work at my current job. I do not take the companies clients away from the company to my side work. That would, without a doubt, be unethical.
Rik
My boss knows about all my side jobs. I actually pay a percentage of the fees I collect on side jobs to my employer and in exchange use the company title block and am insured by the company. Any side job I feel is too much to do on weekends or in the evening goes to my employer. I still do the work.
The small jobs I do on the side are for business relationships I developed before coming to work at my current job. I do not take the companies clients away from the company to my side work. That would, without a doubt, be unethical.
Rik
Some companies also have policies on "moonlighting" so you may want to check for anything official. If you have signed a non-competition agreement, that would come into play as well. Other than that, I would agree with the previous posters on full disclosure with your employer.
Regards,
Regards,
SylvestreW
Mechanical
tell your client and your company. if both don't have a problem, you are fine.
if you have any hesitation in telling either parties, then there's cause for concern.
if you have any hesitation in telling either parties, then there's cause for concern.
Being in the National Guards or work as a volunteer fireman is also moonlighting, Doctors refers hospital patients to their own medical practice, cops using our tax dollars work as security guards in local night clubs and on and on, why can't engineers moonlight and make babysitting money? pay for teh braces, etc, why is it that engineers are the only ones that need "ethics"?
In this country, you can get up a t 4:00 AM, deliver newspapers till 6:00 AM, go to a day job, and then deliver pizza at night (I know people who do these three jobs).
I moonlight, I make 25% more of my salary on the side using my home office, I never use the company's time or ressources (nothing, not even an e-mail), I actually use my own ressources to perform projects faster at work, using my own database. I develop expertise faster, I am a more knowledgeable Engineer by moonlighting, because I am exposed to a different variety of projects. I gain more experience because I work more hours and at different tasks.
When I look at my bank account, if it were not for the money from moonlighting in the past five years, my bank account will be less than zero today. Honestly.
My boss must have moolighted before he created his company. I am free to work as much as I can to make a better living for my family, and I don't want to hear anyone telling me that it is "unethical" to work hard.
AND, I don't have to tell my employer about my moonlighting. My boss buys my intelligence to design projects for a set fee, which I deliver better and faster than most engineers, he has no business on my life after I leave work.
In this country, you can get up a t 4:00 AM, deliver newspapers till 6:00 AM, go to a day job, and then deliver pizza at night (I know people who do these three jobs).
I moonlight, I make 25% more of my salary on the side using my home office, I never use the company's time or ressources (nothing, not even an e-mail), I actually use my own ressources to perform projects faster at work, using my own database. I develop expertise faster, I am a more knowledgeable Engineer by moonlighting, because I am exposed to a different variety of projects. I gain more experience because I work more hours and at different tasks.
When I look at my bank account, if it were not for the money from moonlighting in the past five years, my bank account will be less than zero today. Honestly.
My boss must have moolighted before he created his company. I am free to work as much as I can to make a better living for my family, and I don't want to hear anyone telling me that it is "unethical" to work hard.
AND, I don't have to tell my employer about my moonlighting. My boss buys my intelligence to design projects for a set fee, which I deliver better and faster than most engineers, he has no business on my life after I leave work.
rday,
Are you stamping the plans on your side jobs or does your boss put his/her stamp on your work?
If you do in fact stamp the side work plans yourself, does your company have to buy additional coverage for liability associated with your stamp, or are you covered under the umbrella of the comapny insurance?
Are you stamping the plans on your side jobs or does your boss put his/her stamp on your work?
If you do in fact stamp the side work plans yourself, does your company have to buy additional coverage for liability associated with your stamp, or are you covered under the umbrella of the comapny insurance?
ee202
If had a second job at Home Depot in the electrical dept. would his boss be liable if he sold someone the wrong connector or something?
His boos buys his time for 40 hours a week, not his life.
His bosses insurance covers the work he does for his boss.
If a school teachers tutors on the side can people sue the school. Why are engineers the only people who have to work at Wall-Mart, McDonalds etc. instead of what they know best.
If had a second job at Home Depot in the electrical dept. would his boss be liable if he sold someone the wrong connector or something?
His boos buys his time for 40 hours a week, not his life.
His bosses insurance covers the work he does for his boss.
If a school teachers tutors on the side can people sue the school. Why are engineers the only people who have to work at Wall-Mart, McDonalds etc. instead of what they know best.
BJC,
Please note that if an engineer stamps plans, his/her name is on the seal of that stamp. I would think that, in the event of a lawsuit, someone could go after the personal assets of the individual who stamped the plans. The difference between this scenario and someone selling the wrong part to a customer at Home Depot is night and day. Please enlighten me if I missed something.
I am just trying to learn the "ins and outs" of liablity insurance at engineering firms and wehther or not company policies typically cover employees who stamp and sign plans, or not.
Please note that if an engineer stamps plans, his/her name is on the seal of that stamp. I would think that, in the event of a lawsuit, someone could go after the personal assets of the individual who stamped the plans. The difference between this scenario and someone selling the wrong part to a customer at Home Depot is night and day. Please enlighten me if I missed something.
I am just trying to learn the "ins and outs" of liablity insurance at engineering firms and wehther or not company policies typically cover employees who stamp and sign plans, or not.
Pretty clear that the normal liability insurance does not cover moonlighting:
TTFN
TTFN
ee2002
"The difference between this scenario and someone selling the wrong part to a customer at Home Depot is night and day. Please enlighten me if I missed something."
The stamp belongs to the indivual not his employer. Someone can't go after his employer if a moonlighter makes an error. ( They can and probably would but the employer could defend hisself pretty well ).
What if the engineer works for Home Depot because they have better bennies and he can get building material at a discount. On the weekends he does enineering. He makes an error, can you see the injured party suing Home Depot?
If the injured party can sue his engineering employer ( who didn't know or suspect what he was doing ) why couldn't the injured party sue every engineer in the state including me and you? The moonlighting employee should have his own insurance, it would cover his own work and in the case of some policies cover work he did for his full time employeer.
Most engineering firms don't want employees to moonlight because they are fearfull they will steal work. IF atlas66 doesn't steal work, use his employeers equipment as he said it's none of the guys business.
"The difference between this scenario and someone selling the wrong part to a customer at Home Depot is night and day. Please enlighten me if I missed something."
The stamp belongs to the indivual not his employer. Someone can't go after his employer if a moonlighter makes an error. ( They can and probably would but the employer could defend hisself pretty well ).
What if the engineer works for Home Depot because they have better bennies and he can get building material at a discount. On the weekends he does enineering. He makes an error, can you see the injured party suing Home Depot?
If the injured party can sue his engineering employer ( who didn't know or suspect what he was doing ) why couldn't the injured party sue every engineer in the state including me and you? The moonlighting employee should have his own insurance, it would cover his own work and in the case of some policies cover work he did for his full time employeer.
Most engineering firms don't want employees to moonlight because they are fearfull they will steal work. IF atlas66 doesn't steal work, use his employeers equipment as he said it's none of the guys business.
BJC,
My situation is a little different. The moonlighting is fully disclosed to my employer and it was even agreed I could use the company's resources to do this work provided I pay the company a percentage of the project fee. I would think that this situation ties the company to the project and that I might be covered under the company's insurance. Just trying to figure it out.
My situation is a little different. The moonlighting is fully disclosed to my employer and it was even agreed I could use the company's resources to do this work provided I pay the company a percentage of the project fee. I would think that this situation ties the company to the project and that I might be covered under the company's insurance. Just trying to figure it out.
It sounds like they're getting a rental fee, essentially as a recompensation for your usage of company resources. But, unless they provide services such as drawing checks or sign-offs, they oughtn't be found liable.
They'll get sued, obviously, but if all they're providing is office supplies and computer resources, they wouldn't expect to take a liability from your actions.
TTFN
They'll get sued, obviously, but if all they're providing is office supplies and computer resources, they wouldn't expect to take a liability from your actions.
TTFN
aardvarkdw
Mechanical
As long as the company's name is not on your designs I can't see how they would be liable. If I loan you a pen and some paper and let you use my fax machine that doesn't mean that I am responsible for your actions. Just make sure that you don't use anything with the company letterhead, or the company titleblock or in any other way involve the company. If they still are willing to donate materials and allow you to borrow equipment great.
David
David
There are two ethical concerns here. The first is your duty to your employer. If you have full disclosure and acceptance by all parties then that is not an issue. Hiding your moonlighting is unethical; doing it with the permission of your employer is ethical.
Just watch out for the moonlighting calls during business hours. The time can add up.
The other issue is your duty to your fellow engineers. Can you fairly compete with them or are you using your employer’s resources (time, reference material, computer software and hardware etc) to do work for which they have to pay full price for?
Personally I feel that moonlighting and being in fair competition with the full time engineers is impossible to do fairly and ethically.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Just watch out for the moonlighting calls during business hours. The time can add up.
The other issue is your duty to your fellow engineers. Can you fairly compete with them or are you using your employer’s resources (time, reference material, computer software and hardware etc) to do work for which they have to pay full price for?
Personally I feel that moonlighting and being in fair competition with the full time engineers is impossible to do fairly and ethically.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
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