Skills shortages on the shop floor/coal face 2

[lewtam]

Here in Australia, we are enjoying a resources boom. Our mines and mining support companies are working harder than ever to capitalise on the higher commodity prices and for that they need skilled labour, and for this topic I'm specifically talking about technicians and tradespeople.

We seem to be reaping the rewards of industry practice of the last 10-15 years where very little new blood was bought in - no traineeships/appreticeships etc. It's not unheard of for a company to have over 100 tradespeople and not one apprentice. Need another mechanic? No problem, just go to a rural tractor repairer and offer there newly certified mechanic that they bought through his apprenticeship and offer him 3 times his current salary. No more mechanics left? No problem, cry "skills shortage" to the government and they will fast track the immigration applications of a few overseas mechanics.

I'd be interested to know what the situation is in other countries, and if their big resource companies live up to the responsibility they have to their own industry.

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

 

[wes616]

Lewtam,

It is a similar practice here in the US. Companies do not want to train people to do their jobs anymore. Unless it is a heavily unionized trade, where the union mandates a number of apprentices, there is none.

Now, in our country, there is an emphasis on education so great, I like to call it "over-education". Tradespeople are looked down on as "to dumb" to go to college. (If you read posts on here you'll see this attitude from many people - Only I am qualified to do this job because I got an education in engineering, and a liscense by some state.

It is a real sad thing. And we here in the US wonder why all our manufacturing jobs (and other middle class trades) are going overseas. Well they are not completely leaving the country, but the ones that are left are filled by immigrants who do not feel like it is beneath them to be a machinest or a miner, much less sweep up the shop floor at the end of the day.

My family has been in the mining industry, as far back as anyone can remember. (Traced back to 1400's France), and my generation is the first generation to have no one in the mining idustry. I did study Mining Engineering for 2 years, but even at that I got a lot of, "god you are so smart why do you want to work in the mines." well this influnced me to get out of mining completely.... Education is a good thing, but a fine trade is the history of who we are. Every day that goes by, we loose this history.



Wes C.

 

[BillPSU]

In the US there has been a big push to move technical knowledge into machinery. An example is tool and die makers. With the advent of the CNC machine many of these skills have moved to a CNC programmer and the the accuracy of the machine tool. This also moved much of the work to countries with lower labor rates. Many machinist have also become button pushers more of a machine attendant roll than a machinist. Automation has also reduced the demand for skilled people after the initial installation of equipment. Companies have eliminated many training programs and many vocational schools have been eliminated. I'm not complaining about this movement however when a particularly difficult part should be made but the people in charge of production cannot figure a way to do it the part is either redesigned into two or more simpler parts or sub-contracted to someone who can make the part.

 

[BigWallyB]

This is the face of progress, and it is inevitable. Is that not what engineering is all about? I am quite sure the buggy makers were not happy with the Otto cycle and the automobile, nor were the steam engine makers happy with Rudolf Diesel.
There is of course a strong political aspect to this. Although socialism has failed in every venue it has been tried, it seems that many of the "advanced" cultures are progressing towards nanny states. When the govt. is the answer to everything, the scales of power slip decidedly from the people’s hands. And IMO that is never a good thing.


Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally

 

[ajack1]

As economies grow has this not always been the case? It is nearly always immigrant workers that do the low paid and dangerous jobs that the natives do not want to do.

 

[MikeyP]

We are very fortunate in the UK. Our government wants "50% of young people to go to univerity". So instead of thousands of new 21-year-old qualified machinists, fabricators etc, we have thousands of 21-year-old "media studies" graduates who are going to spend the rest of their lives saying "Do you want fries with that?".

Aren't we lucky?

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

 

[makeup]

Unfortunately it appears that Australia, in an attempt to moved forward through immigration has also imported our mindset.

We lost apprenticeships a long while ago, because companies stop training. Colleges closed their training programs due to lack of demand and now we have work based learning and I'm not going to go there.

Unfortunately / fortunately depending where you stand, immigration will offer some relief to companies that suffer from skills shortages as these are the only people left who are prepared to do something for nothing.

 

[ajack1]

That is so true MickeyP, what is even more worrying is many of those that go on to further education lack even basic skills in reading and writing.

It is not just engineering that is effected, it is now nearly impossible to get a reliable plumber, electrician, builder in fact most of the traditional trades.

Still at least the person asking me would you like to go large with that is now more qualified than me, even if they cannot read or write.

 

[wes616]

This is the face of progress, and it is inevitable. Is that not what engineering is all about?

Acutally engineering practice dates back to the beginning of recorded time. Some might even call it a historic job. There are just as many engineers doing thing many centuries old, as there are engineers doing the new-new thing (maybe even more).

You must have appriciation for progress in this profession. But have some recognition for the past. I mean, how many times do you want to Invent the wheel.

I am no advocate for moving back in time. What I am an advocate for is a realistic understanding of the economics of employment on a need basis, not a preception basis. Our preception, here in the US, is that EVERYONE SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE. Why is that? Well because we seem to think that if you don't you must be stupid. We believe that carpenters, and plummers and bricklayer... electricians and machinest weren't smart enough to be "professional". How many times have you heard, "wow,he is the best {insert trade craft here} could you imagine what he could have done if he'd gotten his {insert corrisponding degree} degree!"

Here is one for you... My grandpa, graduated from 6th grade. Yes that would make him about 12 years old. He started working in a Mine. Got on a Survey Crew.. Worked his way up to survey crew cheif. From there moved into the civil engineering office... worked his way up to the head of civil engineering at a major coal mine operator... moved into mining operations... and retired as Cheif Engineer of a major coal mine.... How did he do this you say.... I mean he must have not been smart enough to go to college... and only a college man could be an engineer....

Well he learned from men who were good at these jobs... he was "an apprentice" to an engineer (or several). And when he mastered his craft... he trained people to do the same.

Could this happen today? No.

He would also have never gotten the respect he had attained within his community, because he'd be some poor sap that couldn't make it to college.

We need a paradigm shift in this country. We need to show respect for people who "choose" a trade, because it is the right thing for our economy and our history not because they are to stupid to make it in college. If not, we will be a country of service industry workers, with great educations, constantly complaining about how we've gotten a raw deal, and ship all our middle class jobs(Wal-mart is not a middle class job) overseas.

Oh, and by the way, eventually Corporations are going to figure out that it is much much better to have engineers near the "actual" manufacturing, and better to have engineers that speak the same language as the technicians operating the machines. Then where will we be. Remember, historically engineering is viewd as a trad craft as well.


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller





Wes C.

 

[moltenmetal]

Don't worry wes616, the economy is already taking care of this for us. When the trades actually pay better and offer more job security and consistency than engineering because these skills really ARE valued in the way you're suggesting that they should be, smart people will move in to fill the vacuum. Isn't that how things are supposed to work?

While it continues to be more lucrative to sit at a desk and push paper in an air-conditioned office, people will choose to do this instead. And when there aren't enough jobs for all those who want to work as engineers- what then?

If the Canadian government is any indication, governments are too stupid to deal with labour market problems like this. Our Federal government is currently deporting skilled tradesemen who were imported illegally into waiting jobs to fill real skills shortages, only to LEGALLY import about twelve times the number of engineers that our economy could hope to provide engineering jobs for. And guess where many of those recent immigrant engineers are ending up? You guessed it- the trades.

The sad thing is that industry has basically vacated its role as a trainer of its workforce, expecting the various levels of government to supply it with a well-trained, experienced, "flexible" (i.e. cowed, willing to take any working conditions offered at whatever pay is offered), and PLENTIFUL supply of whatever skills are needed- only to drop them back onto the unemployment rolls the next time the economy takes a downturn. And we've let them get away with this fundamental shift of cost from their pockets to the public purse, basically scot-free!

 

[wes616]

Moltenmetal,

I think you are makeing a very important point here. Why is your government opening the gates of immigration to the "educated" and leaving the door shut to the "trained." It is a bias that "we the educated" have, that every poor sap that couldn't make it in college is going to end up costing the tax payers money in welfare or whatever. I think Australia may have it right, giving priority to tradesmen over that of many other "professions".

Wes C.

 

[arunmrao]

There are no tradesmen left nor are the young not so talented willing to join for any tradesmanship. Thanks to the BPOs all are swarming towards them .

In my foundry I have not been able to add a new tradesman for the past 5 years. This is alarming,I suppose with the end of my generation all our skills and experience will also die. It is quite frightening.

 

[makeup]

Here in the UK there is a total reluctance to train home blood especially in the SME's. They find it easier and more financially beneficial to import eastern block skills, who are prepared to work harder for less.

This in my opinion will be the trend here for the immediate future. Wages being kept low through the exploitation of cheap labour. So anyone considering a move back or onto their tools think carefully. No-one is going to raise the stakes if they don't have to.