Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings 7

[Jumanji1]

Hi,
I come across specifications on large projects from "reputed" Global oil companies with valve casting sourcing restrictions stating No China, No India. However none of them seem to establish what is the reason for this restriction. What measures could be adapted to stop these restrictive practices?

 

[BigInch]

That debate is about "dumping", not quality. Dumping is selling a product abroad at a price less than for what you can fairly sell it at home and often involving selling a product at a price that is lower than the domestic breakeven point. It is nothing but market disruption, often in an attempt to gain market share while putting the foreign producers out of business. It can do severe damage to the smaller domestic producers as well as the foreign market producers and suppliers. For that reason it is against WTO policies. The USA has similar issues with Brazilian steel pipe from time to time, so these types of anti-dumping complaints and actions are in no way specifically restricted to eastern nations.

The east is equally likely to complain about such practices. Worth noting that Japan will not allow the import of many agricultural products even at high prices, such as beef and apples, preferring to protect its domestic producers "at all costs". Let's complain about something like that. None of this is east/west prejudice. It's unfair competition.

Sell your product for its fair value; what it costs to produce plus transportation, time value of money and any quality premiums you think your product deserves, or can demand in the market place, and you can do it. Take your prejudice argument elsewhere.


you must get smarter than the software you're using.

 

[moltenmetal]

China and India are very different indeed. We buy materials and finished goods manufactured in both locations. You can find excellent and terrible quality articles in either country, just as you can find excellent and terrible quality of both goods and services in any country. But since there is no functioning civil court system in China that anyone in a developed democracy would recognize, you have no recognize that this is a huge impediment to legal relief when something goes horribly wrong. While in practice it is ALSO hard to get legal relief from any legal system anywhere- it costs time and money and true justice is far from certain- what a functioning legal system does is to provide a threat of consequences to people who are otherwise reasonably honest but who are under the undeniable pressure of running a business. Remove that pressure pretty much entirely and you get China. India at least has the threat of a legal system.

Prohibiting procurement of goods from an entire country is totally unfair. It is just as ineffective to use a country of origin as a proxy for quality as is using a brand name for the same purpose. It is also totally impractical when one of those countries is the location in which a huge swath of the world's manufactured goods are now made. But it is done by some because they do not have the wherewithal to put the enormous effort into assuring the quality of manufactured articles at every step in their manufacture, and they have to be seen to be doing something- anything.

What we do instead is to bear the cost of a middleman- a distributor- who has assets here we can claim against, and who does enough business in China that they can sink the effort required into qualifying mills and doing additional quality testing prior to procurement. We do get burned every once in a while, and the costs to us are greater than the value of the material which we must replace after the fact, even though the distributor replaces it free of charge. We also find that some products are just harder to manufacture with acceptable quality than others so we know where to focus our efforts. In some cases that means banning that material form entirely, or restricting it to certain suppliers for whom we have some evidence of an ability to make it right.

As to the notion of trade protectionism, private (non government) entities can discriminate on any basis they see fit, just as individuals are. They are free to take their business where they will, and to deny it to whoever they want. They can avoid purchasing from your country, or from your firm or even from you personally because they don't like you for whatever reason- even for reasons you might find completely disgusting. It is not protectionism- it is freedom. You can only hope that other people, who understand that arbitrary discrimination is bad for business, will out-compete them and put them out of business.

 

[gtaw]

As a consumer and as an end user, I probably go to extremes to avoid any products made in China and India. One only has to be burned once or twice to learn the lesson.

I am not about to fly to China or India to ferret out the one or two suppliers that provide quality products. I simply avoid products from countries that have proven to provide substandard products. Until they learn the hard lessons that they need to provide products that meet or exceed customer expectations, they will have to live with the consequences of their past practices and well earned reputations for providing shoddy workmanship and subpar products.

Price isn't the only tool used when making purchasing decisions. Quality counts. The burden isn't on the consumer. We vote with our pocketbook and we owe no allegiance to a company or a country that has earned a poor reputation. Reputations are earned by one's actions.


Best regards - Al

 

[gr2vessels]

My two cents;- I have rejected a Lloyds China certification for a set of pumps that were signed off by the same person (signature), for supplier QA inspector, testing operator, QA department manager and Lloyds inspector. Same writing, same name, same date. I have sent the certification to London asking for confirmation of the authenticity of certification provided, but they never replied.
I have gensets fabricated in China by reputed European firms, at highest quality I could ask. I have had great satisfaction with engineering and fabrication of production separator supplied by Godrej in India, highest class of professionalism. Very mixed feelings, but overall one should avoid purchase from any un-prequalified Chinese or Indian vendor. The pre-qualification obviously done by your company, not a nice internet reference...
Cheers,
gr2vessels

 

[MJCronin]

It seems to me that there should be an "Angies List" approach to suppliers of castings. (Informal database of customer satisfaction)

(because castings, due to their very nature, are such a risk for the purchaser

Does anyone know if the is there such a thing or what problems there would be in such an approach ?

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[marty007]

MJCronin,

I am always wary of reference lists like these because of the risk of fraud. It's easy to picture the manufacturer making up names and providing positive reviews for their own products.

Unless the list can be vetted in a meaningful way, I'd be nervous.

 

[qcrobert]

I have personally dealt with Chinesse manufactured black iron cast fittings during the late 1970's & 80's that resulted in crack failures in water and natural gas service. This resulted in the replacement of several hundred replacement fittings. Never would I buy or use cast fittings made in China again.

Below is a link to the Oakland Bay Bridge that focuses on Chinesse faulty welds and Caltrans unacceptable oversight.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/bay-bridge/article2589402.html

Also an article on cast iron soil piping made in China.

http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2014/08/14/is-chinese-cast-iron-piping-the-next-chinese-dry-w

Besides being loyal to USA foundaries, there is a reason for now buying China produced fittings.


Robert

 

[DekDee]

MJCronin,
I knew there was a Lloyds Register for Filler Metal Manufacturers (Manufacturing plants audited by Lloyds) so thought I would see if they do Castings.
Hope this helps,

https://www.cdlive.lr.org/information/Documents\Approvals\ApprovedManufactures\list2.pdf

Cheers,
DD

 

[sharmass]

There are good manufacturers and bad manufacturers all over the world. Blaming one or two is not correct.
If you want better material don't always look to buy cheap.

Further China and India are the biggest casting manufacturers. Even if you buy a valve made in Europe or USA, chances are that the body castings were made in China or India

 

[Duwe6]

"Even if you buy a valve made in Europe or USA, chances are that the body castings were made in China or India."

Yep, but then I have somebody I can sue if there are defects. Keeps everybody honest. [and increases the cost slightly]. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

And India is my preferred source for SA-105 flange forgings. Excellent price, excellent quality. But not large castings, without a Source Inspection. Thus the purchase via a US or EU vendor. We are too small to Source anything other than pressure vessels, so just let the vendor handle it. With recourse to an effective lawsuit if they sell us junk.