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Spin of Architect Post 5
- Thread starter buzzp
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- #21
DaveVikingPE
Structural
The architects I work with are the "Design Team Leaders." They interpret the client's requirements, generate building geometry, room-by-room requirements, etc. Then the engineers of many disciplines are brought in to a) capture the architect's intent, b) make the architect's intent work, and c) ask questions if the architect's intent needs "refining."
- Thread starter
- #22
Just as bad as letting any one engineer discipline sigh off on everything.
Construction is a team event.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Construction is a team event.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
- Thread starter
- #24
Agreed RDK. Should not happen. But if they the architect is not being taught all the details like a structural would, then how can they let them sign off on it? Afterall, the architect has not been through a proper engineering curriculum (as I understand it) teaching all the fine details. And to let them sign off on electrical is just as bad.
If a civil, mechanical, etc can sign an electrical drawing then this is a bad idea. Same goes for electricals signing civils. I am sure it is legal in some areas but still not a very good idea in my mind.
If a civil, mechanical, etc can sign an electrical drawing then this is a bad idea. Same goes for electricals signing civils. I am sure it is legal in some areas but still not a very good idea in my mind.
When I asked an architect once about his education as far as engineering, he said they had some basic engineering in school, like basic beam design and such, but nothing very in-depth. That is, of course, why structural engineers have a job.
I think buzzp hit it right on. It is legal in some areas for architects to sign off on structural drawings, and probably others as well. While it is legal, it is not a good idea imo.
I think buzzp hit it right on. It is legal in some areas for architects to sign off on structural drawings, and probably others as well. While it is legal, it is not a good idea imo.
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- #26
My wife is an Architect. And she does not sign off on Structural. A structural engineer does (for anything beyond 2 story wood framed residential)...
Architects are taught structural. Not to the debth that an SE is, but just they same, it is a requirement at most professional architecture schools. This is so they can interact with area specific professionals...
Wes C.
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When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...
Architects are taught structural. Not to the debth that an SE is, but just they same, it is a requirement at most professional architecture schools. This is so they can interact with area specific professionals...
Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...
The best book that I ever found that explained mechanical and electrical aspects of construction was in the architectural portion of the university bookstore.
They are usually the lead consultant for a reason, they are good at integrating all aspects of a project into a coherent whole.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
They are usually the lead consultant for a reason, they are good at integrating all aspects of a project into a coherent whole.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
- Thread starter
- #28
RDK, your a civil so I would not expect your perception of a 'good' mechanical or electrical book to be the same as an EE or ME who works in commercial building projects, even though you have years of experience.
The fact is, they should not sign off on the whole project (at least not all the detailed electrical and mechanical drawings) and neither should any engineer.
The fact is, they should not sign off on the whole project (at least not all the detailed electrical and mechanical drawings) and neither should any engineer.
GregLocock
Automotive
Ultimately somebody has to sign it off. Somebody has to decide on, and accept responsibility for, the final compromise.
I've worked with enough prima-donnas who insist that their system is the one that matters most to know that most, gifted, engineers cannot be relied on to do this.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
I've worked with enough prima-donnas who insist that their system is the one that matters most to know that most, gifted, engineers cannot be relied on to do this.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
My definition of a good book on mechanical and electrical is one that gives an overview of the systems and their interrelationship with the other components of the building. It is definitely not a design book for the systems but one that leads to a better understanding of the basic relationships of the buildings.
This is the role of someone responsible for the integration of the building. They do not have to know precisely how to size a air handling system but need to know the factors to be considered in terms of final outcomes of say one big AHU and 30 smaller zone systems.
They have to be able to see these factors and be able to intelligently discuss them with the mechanical designers and to understand the impact of these on occupant comfort, cost and operation of the facility.
That’s what architects do. While sometimes they are prima donnas who can be a major PITA they do this in general very well and are needed for the construction of any building that is not strictly an industrial facility.
After all often the electrical guys can be as major a PITA as can the architects, at least from a civil viewpoint. I imagine that the electrical guys say much the same about us civils as well.
It comes down to professionalism. A true professional knows his limitations and gets help in those areas where he is incompetent. (in terms of lacking ability not the negative connotations of useless) A true professional also makes an attempt to take into consideration the concerns of the other professionals working alongside them.
Anyone who, despite any legal right to sign off on something, who signs off on something that they do not have adequate knowledge, education and experience is IMHO acting unprofessionally and should be subject to discipline by the authority having jurisdiction over their profession.
Like I said construction is a team activity. No team can function if all positions are played by one person with no assistance from the other needed disciplines.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
This is the role of someone responsible for the integration of the building. They do not have to know precisely how to size a air handling system but need to know the factors to be considered in terms of final outcomes of say one big AHU and 30 smaller zone systems.
They have to be able to see these factors and be able to intelligently discuss them with the mechanical designers and to understand the impact of these on occupant comfort, cost and operation of the facility.
That’s what architects do. While sometimes they are prima donnas who can be a major PITA they do this in general very well and are needed for the construction of any building that is not strictly an industrial facility.
After all often the electrical guys can be as major a PITA as can the architects, at least from a civil viewpoint. I imagine that the electrical guys say much the same about us civils as well.
It comes down to professionalism. A true professional knows his limitations and gets help in those areas where he is incompetent. (in terms of lacking ability not the negative connotations of useless) A true professional also makes an attempt to take into consideration the concerns of the other professionals working alongside them.
Anyone who, despite any legal right to sign off on something, who signs off on something that they do not have adequate knowledge, education and experience is IMHO acting unprofessionally and should be subject to discipline by the authority having jurisdiction over their profession.
Like I said construction is a team activity. No team can function if all positions are played by one person with no assistance from the other needed disciplines.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
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1
- #31
I came across this forum while doing a bit of online research and thought I would add a response. I signed in as "Computer" on this forum b/c when I'm not on site, that's what I sit in front of.
As an Architect, I'll let you know the educational requirements. for the most part, the previous responses are valid. But here is more detailed truth:
Education requirements for becoming a Registered Architect (free to stamp/sign your own drawings) vary from state to state. check out National Council of Arch. Registration Board
1.) 5-year professional degree(undergraduate in Architecture) + 3 year internship after college + 9 part registration exam = Registered Architect with NCARB certification. this means you can be registered in all U.S. states and U.S. territories. This is the most current and common degree option.
2.) 4-year pre-professional architecture degree (i.e. Bachelor of Environmental Design) or undergraduate degree in a completely unrelated field (i.e. English) + Masters in Architecture + 3 year internship + exam = Registered Architect with NCARB certification. Next common option.
3.) No architectural degree + 8 year internship + registration exam = Registered Architect. this means you can only be registered in the state you take the exam in. few states allow this: TX, AZ, CA, WA. this option is being phased out because there are way too many potential arch's out there.
4.) 4-year pre-professional architecture degree + 4 or 5 year internship + exam = Registered Architect. this is being phased out too, but not yet. this option was common prior to the 5-year professional degree being offered.
5.) 5.5-year Masters in Arch. This is fairly new in a few state schools - Texas Tech and WSU to name a couple. You apply to grad school in your 3rd or 4th year of a pre-professional architecture program. once accepted, you spend another 3 semesters merging a Master's in. It's handy now b/c there are a lot of emerging arch interns in the field. the bar is being raised each year in terms of credentials vs. experience.
In school with a 4-year undergrad. arch. degree I took a semester each of Calc 1, 2, General Structures, Lateral Forces, Concrete/Steel/Wood framing, Mechanical/HVAC Systems, Electrical. And of course materials and methods thru the Construction Science department. then there were the design studios. I have been working for 10 years now.
Real world = small percentage of time is spent designing a project. Majority of time and budget is spent holding on to that design, then taking those overview engineering/ construction courses from college and using that knowledge in dialogue with the engineers and contractor. they already think architects have their heads up their butts - in lala design land. so archs and engineers all have to talk the same language to have an efficient and smart design to begin with, and a good building as a result.
with M. Arch degrees being more common nowadays for architects, engineers pay less in tuition prior to becoming a Professional. and they are paid a lot more, once in the profession. starting pay for architects is the same regardless of whatever type of arch degree you have - low. however, architecture is supposed to be a "sexy" profession in that very fictional Fountainhead way.
As an Architect, I'll let you know the educational requirements. for the most part, the previous responses are valid. But here is more detailed truth:
Education requirements for becoming a Registered Architect (free to stamp/sign your own drawings) vary from state to state. check out National Council of Arch. Registration Board
1.) 5-year professional degree(undergraduate in Architecture) + 3 year internship after college + 9 part registration exam = Registered Architect with NCARB certification. this means you can be registered in all U.S. states and U.S. territories. This is the most current and common degree option.
2.) 4-year pre-professional architecture degree (i.e. Bachelor of Environmental Design) or undergraduate degree in a completely unrelated field (i.e. English) + Masters in Architecture + 3 year internship + exam = Registered Architect with NCARB certification. Next common option.
3.) No architectural degree + 8 year internship + registration exam = Registered Architect. this means you can only be registered in the state you take the exam in. few states allow this: TX, AZ, CA, WA. this option is being phased out because there are way too many potential arch's out there.
4.) 4-year pre-professional architecture degree + 4 or 5 year internship + exam = Registered Architect. this is being phased out too, but not yet. this option was common prior to the 5-year professional degree being offered.
5.) 5.5-year Masters in Arch. This is fairly new in a few state schools - Texas Tech and WSU to name a couple. You apply to grad school in your 3rd or 4th year of a pre-professional architecture program. once accepted, you spend another 3 semesters merging a Master's in. It's handy now b/c there are a lot of emerging arch interns in the field. the bar is being raised each year in terms of credentials vs. experience.
In school with a 4-year undergrad. arch. degree I took a semester each of Calc 1, 2, General Structures, Lateral Forces, Concrete/Steel/Wood framing, Mechanical/HVAC Systems, Electrical. And of course materials and methods thru the Construction Science department. then there were the design studios. I have been working for 10 years now.
Real world = small percentage of time is spent designing a project. Majority of time and budget is spent holding on to that design, then taking those overview engineering/ construction courses from college and using that knowledge in dialogue with the engineers and contractor. they already think architects have their heads up their butts - in lala design land. so archs and engineers all have to talk the same language to have an efficient and smart design to begin with, and a good building as a result.
with M. Arch degrees being more common nowadays for architects, engineers pay less in tuition prior to becoming a Professional. and they are paid a lot more, once in the profession. starting pay for architects is the same regardless of whatever type of arch degree you have - low. however, architecture is supposed to be a "sexy" profession in that very fictional Fountainhead way.
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