Sprinkler System Design 1

[RFreund]

I'm sure this is a hard question to answer but...

I'm curious to know how difficult it would be to learn how to design sprinkler systems. I do structural work but get asked to stamp fire protection / sprinkler pipe designs from time to time as I know a couple contractors in the industry. I don't ever do it as I am not trained in this area. However I am wondering if there are any manuals / books / seminars that could help me become competent in this area. Maybe I try to sub out a few jobs and review the calcs. I have designed supports for piping systems and have a basic understanding of fluid mechanics but I'm wondering how big the jump is. Again probably hard to quantify but any feedback would be helpful.

Thanks!

FYI -> I tried this in a different Forum but was directed here, so I apologize for this being a duplicate.

EIT

http://www.HowToEngineer.com

 

[Sdpaddler50]

RF, I think you are on a slippery slope. I am an FPE and did independent consulting for awhile before returning to a large company. I was asked to do design and sprinkler drawings. I can run calcs and draw in cad, but my skills are limited since most of my time was doing code work.

I personally feel we should leave this to sprinkler contractors, but I believe all states should have nicet requirements to ensure quality.

I work with sprinkler contractors a lot, and to be good at it, you need to be doing it full time. IMO.

I turned down a lot of work while out on my own, because I did not feel I had the ability to do a top notch job. i suppose that may be why I had to shut the doors. But, I also know I could sleep at night and honored the ethics of being an engineer.

 

[LCREP]

As an insurance AHJ I wish more engineers who stamp plans would actually know what the heck they are doing so it would make my job easier. I would say learn NFPA 13, either take seminars and or start reading the code. Buy the 13 handbook it helps explain the code. You can also take a week long hydraulics seminar at either of the American or national fire sprinkler association.

Things that I find wrong include wrong commodity classification, water supply testing, plans and hydraulic reference points do not match, cut sheets supplied and equipment on the job do not match. Pipe sizes do not match and or wrong pipe schedual used say 40 on the plans but 10 on the calculations. Pipe hanger design not shown or wrong when indicated. It goes on and on, all the plans I review are stamped AND I find all kind if things wrong. I bounce back 40% of what I review! sometimes it takes 3 sets of plans before I sign off on the plans!

From teaching plan review seminars I can tell you far too many AHJ feel for that raised seal and do not spend a lot of time on plan review. If I had a $1 for every time I hear the local AHJ gave me a permit if he is OK why aren't you!

OK I will get off my soap box now. Of coarse I do not imply any of the AHJ that post here would ever do what others do.

 

[cdafd]

First suggestion

http://www.firesprinkler.org/training/schools/begdesignschool.html

Another source

http://www.nfsa.org/events/event_list.asp?DGPCrSrt=&DGPCrPg=2

 

[TravisMack]

Look at it this way. I believe you need somewhere between 6 months and 2 years work experience (can't recall and don't feel like looking it up) to be a NICET Level II. You need 5 years work experience to be NICET Level III and 10yrs to be NICET IV. So, it is going to take some where in those ranges to learn and then be competent.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[RFreund]

Very interesting, thanks for the input.

What is the NICET? Is it required? Or maybe more importantly does it take that kind of experience to design sprinkler systems or is that more for inspections?

The more I'm looking into it, it seems that you need to know the code well. Apply the code regulations which determines the amount of water required and where it needs to go. Then you must design a system that can deliver that amount of water. I suppose the main thing is getting the code correct. Is the fluid mechanics portion pretty demanding as well?

As a mechanical engineer is this pretty different than your normal HVAC mechanical engineer?

Thanks again!!

EIT

http://www.HowToEngineer.com

 

[cdafd]

Know the hazard inside and out

Design a system that will protect it

Knowing the hazard is not only the commodity, but how packaged, how stored , how high, etc

Yes fire sprinkled warehouses have burned to the ground.

http://www.nicet.org/become-certified/how-do-i-get-certified/

http://www.nicet.org/become-certifi...s/water-based-fire-protection-systems-layout/

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

As an insurance AHJ I wish more engineers who stamp plans would actually know what the heck they are doing so it would make my job easier.

I'm positive this lament can be echoed by all the experienced regulars who post on this forum whether they be a professional engineer, insurance representative or NICET certified technician.

As a NICET IV technician having 40 years experience I can tell you there is no greater joy than working on a project where a knowledgeable and experienced professional engineer is involved. At the same time there's no worse nightmare than having an inexperienced idiot in charge even if there is PE initials after his name.

Seriously, I know a couple FPE's that I have worked with in the past and I really look forward to working with them on a project because, for me anyway, it's a fun thing. Then there are a couple PE's around that when I see their name on a project I head the other direction because I don't need the experience working with idiots.

NICET stands for "National Institute for Certification in Engineering Technology" and NICET is a non-profit division of the National Society of Professional Engineers.

About NICET

NICET certification does not entitle the certificant to practice engineering. The practice of engineering is defined and regulated by state engineering licensing boards; unlawful practice of engineering is a violation of state laws. When not exempted by state law, the performance of work by the engineering technician/technologist which constitutes the practice of engineering must be under the direct supervision and control of a licensed professional engineer.

Most states have laws that exempt us... some engineers hate the idea we do engineering so we don't call it that but we do it anyway.

Many states, among them Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, Illinois and the list can be expanded have laws very similar to what Georgia has regarding the design (we call it design, we aren't supposed to engineer) of fire sprinkler systems.

Georgia Fire Sprinkler Act

In Georgia every company must employ full time at least one "Certificate of Competency Holder" at each place of business. The "Certificate Holder" is the person who actually holds the Certificate of Competency.

(a) successfully completing a competency test by current certification by NICET at Level III or Level IV in automatic sprinkler system layout and/or by successfully completing such other or additional examinations as the Commissioner may designate. For renewal of such certificate, proof of maintaining NICET Certification at or above Level III in Automatic Sprinkler System Layout is required; or (b) submitting to the Commissioner a certification from either the state fire commissioner or state fire marshal of another jurisdiction whenever a reciprocal agreement has been entered into between the jurisdiction and the State of Georgia pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.

I don't know of any other "examinations" given in Georgia and I think that is a holdover from when the law was adopted and they grandfathered in some people.

Here is the form we use to submit fire sprinkler drawings to the state fire marshal for review 354S Fire Suppression System Transmittal Letter

As indicated on the form only a Certificate of Competency Holder can submit drawings for plan approval and to be a Certificate of Competency Holder you have to have NICET III or IV.

For what it is worth Georgia will come down very hard on a professional engineer that is working outside his area of experience and competency. If I receive drawings or specifications from a licensed Georgia PE I am supposed to follow those even if it's wrong. I mean who am I to argue with a PE who designates the 30,000 sq ft sales floor of a sporting goods store a Light Hazard Occupancy with a density of .10 over 1,500 with heads spaced 225 sq ft? What can happen in Georgia is I draw it up exactly that way, include a letter of why I think it is wrong with my plans and transmittal so if the state fire marshal finds it an issue their beef isn't with me but the PE and the PE's licensing board. I'm happy with this because I am all set up for a change order that will knock the PE's socks off while he argues not with me but his licensing board.

And no, while I could have done it I didn't. I did my job the right way because I take it very seriously.

Because I take my job seriously if I am ever in doubt about how to do something I know two FPE's I can go to for an answer. One charges $225 an hour to consult but he was well, well worth it on a couple projects.

And that is what NICET is and how it works.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Most engineers have never heard of NICET because our numbers are so small.

As of last November there were 2,044 Level III's and 1,258 Level IV's for a combined total of 3,288 nationwide. An average of 66 per state.

By comparison there are roughly 450,000 licensed professional engineers in the United States. An average of 9,000 per state.

I guess we could say it's very much a niche field with a rapidly aging population.

Some figures you might find interesting.

A couple years back I attended the NFSA seminar at Hawk's Cay, Florida for my CEU's and looking over the crowd I was struck by how we could be mistaken for a retirement community outing. When I got back I decided to do some checking and as of November, 2013 in Georgia there are 64 Level IV's on the registry and the average age is 61 years old. 25% are over 66 years old.

There are 195 combined Level III's and IV's and the average age of this group is 53 with only 17% of this group under age 40. 25% of the combined group is over 61 years old.

We already have a shortage of qualified technicians in the industry and I can only wonder what it will be like in 5 to 10 years I think the sprinkler industry is in for an even more severe shortage of qualified technicians

 

[Sdpaddler50]

As in any industry, the level of competence can vary widely.

I think the role of an FPE is better served in writing specs, code assessments, and plan review when it comes to fire sprinkler systems.

I believe it is also important for the FPE to be in the field a lot, not just behind the desk.
[tt][/tt]
Personally, I have used just about every sprinkler layout and calc package on the market. I can lay out heads, run calcs, etc with no problem. I have done this for 26 years but to check systems, conduct prelim design, etc.

Would I layout and calc sprinkler systems for final design? No. As I noted before, I think we should leave it to techs who do it full time and know the nuances and design details a fitter in the field will need.

I wish the Nicet program was required in state. As others have noted, they have some mixed results with FPE's. I can tell you the same horror stories about sprinkler contractors I have dealt with. Nicet certification would help prevent this.

 

[RFreund]

Interesting, thank you for the info.

So it seems on most jobs the sprinkler layout is a "design/build" where the Mechanical Engineer of Record specifies the criteria and then the sprinkler contract does the 'sprinkler design' and produces shop drawings. I'm assuming that the reason I have been asked about it from my contractor friends is because sometimes the ME of Record wants the shop drawings stamped by a PE, but I'll have to inquire with them again now that I understand the situation a bit better.

Thanks again for the info, sounds like there is a lot to be learned.

EIT

http://www.HowToEngineer.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

RFreund,

Remember the best fire sprinkler specifications are short and sweet and include the owners certificate which is required to be provided on any project.

4.3* Owner’s Certificate
The owner(s) of a building or structure where the fire sprinkler system is going to be installed or their authorized agent shall provide the sprinkler system installer with the following information prior to the layout and detailing of the fire sprinkler system [see Figure A.23.1(b)]:
(1) Intended use of the building including the materials within the building and the maximum height of any storage
(2) A preliminary plan of the building or structure along with the design concepts necessary to perform the layout and detail for the fire sprinkler system
(3)* Any special knowledge of the water supply, including known environmental conditions that might be responsible for corrosion, including microbiologically influenced corrosion (MIC).

For the most part that's all I would ever need but if you feel the need to write a spec keep it simple such as "Install a sprinkler system to properly protect areas listed in the owners certificate in accordance with NFPA #13 standards and appropriate building and fire codes."

If you want a special head used, a concealed sprinkler with flat cover plate for example, just say so and don't start specifying specific makes and models because there's no need.

If the building or portions of it are subject to freezing just say and we'll install a dry pipe system.

We've all done large projects for FM Global and most of their specs are one paragraph. "Provide a density of .37 gpm over 3,000 sq ft with 500 gpm hose stream allowance using Factory Mutual approved methods and equipment." That's it, that's all I need.

And please, dump the four page dissertation on how pipe dope and tape needs to be applied to pipe threads and not the inside of pipe fittings. Whenever I see that I know I am dealing with a specifying engineer that doesn't have a clue.

 

[TravisMack]

Not only must the layout tech know how to properly apply the codes and standards, they must also be able to provide a cost efficient design for both material and labor savings. Sure, I could put something on paper that looks beautiful, but if it conflicts with every trade in the building and the field has to recut the entire project, then that beautiful drawing was worthless. Also, if I calculate a system with 4" mains and 2" lines and leave a 50 psi margin, where a 2½" main and 1¼" lines with a 10 psi margin could have done the same job, then I have really not benefited the installing contractor or building owner at all.

It is definitely more than knowing where to put the circles on the plans and drawing lines to connect those circles. I honestly believe it would take 5+ years of doing design 40+ hours per week to become competent and proficient at the job description. Sure, I can teach some one to do a job in probably 1 week, but it will not be adequate for installation or fabrication.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[rmae]

It also should be added that not only must one be proficient in NFPA 13, 14, 20, 22 etc., but good sprinkler design requires one to know how to read plans of other building systems including structural, architectural and mechanical and fully understand what you are seeing.

R M Arsenault Engineering Inc.

http://www.rmae.ca

 

[Sdpaddler50]

Well said Travis.

I think that summarizes the thread nicely.

Over, and out.

 

[MGXFP]

I'm going to echo TravisMack in that it took me five years to work independently as a layout tech. There is a ton to learn to be proficient which I couldn't even start to put in a book.

There are anecdotes that it takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, or about 5 years of full time work, which is right in NICET Level III territory which makes sense.