spSlab installed on virtual machine

[milkshakelake]

My objective is to install spSlab on a virtual machine so all employees can access it from their desks. I spoke to their licensing department and they said it's not allowed, but it is allowed to put a standalone license on one computer and have employees use that one computer. I'm wondering what's fundamentally different about these two approaches? The virtual machine approach just doesn't require people physically getting up and going to a new computer. I read their EULA and it doesn't specifically prohibit it. I'm thinking that they don't like it because it devalues their more expensive, annual network license - which they're right about, it's exactly my aim to avoid that (legally). Though I just wouldn't buy it in the first place if I had to get an annual subscription.

I know the right people to discuss this with would be the software company, but I want to be informed about others' experiences with licensing before I push forward.

 

[jayrod12]

I believe we looked into this. But by the time our IT guy had a chance to develop a work around, we needed more licenses because we grew. To the point where sharing one license via a virtual machine was too inconvenient. So we pay for I think 3 seat network licenses and generally don't seem to have an availability issue.

 

[XR250]

I'm curious, when on a virtual machine, can it be only accessed by one user at a time?

 

[KootK]

Yeah, I think that the virtual machine install just makes it too hard for vendors to control how the license is used.

Can you just install the software on a dedicated machine that your employees remote desktop into? Research before investing in that computer though. Some packages don't even allow this. When it works it can be a nice system though. Make the server machine a high horsepower thing for FEM runs etc.

 

[Celt83]

It doesn't matter how you try to dress this up you are ultimately still trying to circumvent the software vendors intent of one license per user.

Some vendors care greatly about this and have some system in place to monitor things like this and then engage in a conversation about how to bring your license count in line with your usage. Others, usually the smaller ones, absolutely know this stuff is going on and are generally lenient until they see their kindness on the matter being abused (2-3 folks using a common design machine probably a "look the other way" scenario, 20 person firm using an azure hosted design machine = abuse).

 

[milkshakelake]

@jayrod12 We're not at that point yet; I don't imagine more than one user ever needing it. ETABS, AutoCAD, and other stuff on the other hand are used daily and use network/cloud licensing with multiple seats.

@XR250 Yeah, one user at a time.

@KootK Yup, that was my second option. I do have a conference room computer that is used once in a blue moon, so I'll probably throw it onto that and have people remotely access it. I will see if that's allowed. So far, I haven't had problems with remote access for any program (like when employees work from home). I am thinking of setting up a VM for ETABS on my server. It has 2 CPUs and 40 cores, which will be great for nonlinear stuff. I just wish CSI moved onto a distributed calculation thing or at least use GPUs instead of just multithreaded CPUs like a dinosaur.

@Celt83 True, I haven't run afoul of anyone yet. I'm doing my research to make sure everything is legal. Thanks for the perspective. I had a bad experience with Bentley with their network licensing, so I just don't use them anymore. What they do is akin to a swindle; they let you install a network license on multiple computers, but if the software is used within 30 days on two computers, they charge for two licenses. It's quite a big deal for me when the software is like thousands to $10k per software.

 

[Celt83]

@milkshakelake:
Oh I'm very familiar with Bentley's extortion, pretty sure I'm on a list over there.

 

[JoelTXCive]

I'm not sure if it is a virtual machine or not, but we do the following in our office for software packages that we do not use all the time:
[ul]
[li]The IT department installs a standalone software program on one of their computers.[/li]
[li][/li]
[li]Individual users then remote-in to the computer and can use the software. (but only 1 user at a time)[/li]
[/ul]

It allows users in different offices to get access to the program.

 

[milkshakelake]

@JoelTXCive Yeah, that was my backup option. Will probably do that.

 

[bookowski]

@milkshake - You said that you're using the cloud license for Etabs, I'm curious how that works out for you and why you chose that option. I was looking at upgrading our etabs version and they are pushing the cloud license with the upgrade but I'm not seeing the benefit. For the NL version it's $11k and then $2k per year, and you don't really own the software - stop the cloud license and you've got nothing. The standalone version is 8k and you own it. By year 2 with the cloud you've put in $15k and don't own anything, you could almost buy 2 standalone licenses for that same price. The standalone can be moved between machines as well. How did you end up choosing the cloud? They are pushing it but when I asked how these numbers make sense I didn't get any reasonable answer other than it's the way of the future.

 

[milkshakelake]

@bookowski My use case is different. I have about 5 people using it. Uninstalling and reinstalling, or deactivating and reactivating, every time I want to switch a seat is too much hassle. Plus, I need the maintenance (I send a decent amount of support tickets) and the upgrades that come with maintenance. There are still things in development that I asked for that they haven't done yet, like fixing their stupid deflection check for steel, and I need the upgrade when it's done. I don't have enough sway to make them fix it, but at least it's in their system. The older versions are just glitchy, so the ability to upgrade is a huge plus.

I wasn't aware that you don't own the software if you use a cloud license. I thought if you cancel the maintenance, you could still use it, but won't get upgrades. Might want to check with them about that. Unless you just get standalone, which makes sense for you.

By the way, I can confirm that ETABS will work with remote desktop if you need to access it from somewhere else. It won't bug out and report back to the company or something. I'm thinking of putting it on a VM (with cloud licensing) for extra horsepower from my server, and I think it should be fine as well.

 

[bookowski]

Got it, makes sense. The standalone can be moved but you're right that you have to click deactivate/activate first. My cheapness shows itself here I guess. I know a guy that still uses etabs v9 though so I'm not in last place. The csi cloud licensing is too rich for my blood, couple of licenses puts you at 20+k outlay and then 5k/year. I plan to hold onto every standalone software I can get my hands on, they'll be dinosaurs soon. I'd gladly use a 20 year old version of risa if I had one vs paying cloud fees for the latest code updates.

 

[milkshakelake]

I'm cheap myself. The whole point of this thread was about how to save a few bucks, lol.

I don't remember v9. I think I started using v13, and that one really sucks compared to today's version. Some basic stuff like changing a story height or clicking a pier before it's designed would crash the program. Starting v18, they really messed up steel deflection. I think v16 was the best version, and I downgraded one of the licenses to that for steel only. The latest version has a nice general meshing feature, but sometimes it causes more problems than it solves; it takes some getting used to.

I agree that perpetual licenses are best. I hate cloud services in general for money reasons, but unfortunately the industry has shifted there already. I learned Linux so I can use open source self-hosted solutions for a lot of things, and that saves a pretty penny for things like project management, backups, and video streaming. I'm saving hundreds per month from doing that stuff, and the software is top notch. It's not a lesser option.

 

[manstrom]

My company does this for an unnamed software program. We have n licenses. The licenses are rather pricey and if I have n+1 users using the software at one time, I get dinged for another subscription. An inconvenient few thousand dollars that I didn't know I spent (with no way to control it) for maybe 5 minutes of time on a program. This is a software that I use maybe for a solid week then I don't use for months at a time.

After several thousand dollars and no help from the software company, we set up a few virtual computers dedicated to these programs. No one else has the software on their desktop. Engineers use remote desktop to log in and use the program. If another engineer tries to log in, they kick the other user out (control). In my mind, this is the same as setting up a dedicated computer for my software. But instead of setting up a physical computer, it is virtual. I have zero issues with this since the software company was unfairly charging me beyond by budget and offered no way to limit the use. It cost several grand before we solved this.

Enercalc, on the other hand let's you kick off users if the licenses are all taken. They don't charge extra for that.

 

[milkshakelake]

@manstrom I think I know what software you're talking about, because I had the same issue. They're notorious for that. Anyway, thanks for your perspective. The company for spSlab (StructurePoint) is quite reasonable, so I wouldn't want to do anything shady to them by running a VM.

 

[Aesur]

Software prices and licensing is getting out of hand in general, I don't see how many engineering firms could make a profit with the amount of software they would need if they had to purchase a license for every single user, this is part of why we limited the software we use to only what we really need. Most of the work in my area doesn't need all those fancy programs as the projects large enough to justify using something like say RAM are just too far between (not that I would use that software due to their licensing anyways).

Back to the point of this thread, I believe a single computer that is remote connected to is essentially the only option, but I'm not sure of the legality of it as it seems to still be against what their intent is.

 

[milkshakelake]

@Aesur Yeah, I'm probably going to do a remote connected computer. It's still against what they're planning, but it is a physical computer that's in actual use, so that's the best I could do. We use the program once in a blue moon anyway; most stuff is done with spreadsheets and other programs. It's only when we need a really complicated beam or slab analysis for a specific situation, which comes up sometimes.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I'm wondering what's fundamentally different about these two approaches? The virtual machine approach just doesn't require people physically getting up and going to a new computer.

I've dealt with this issue before. So, one of the main issues with a "virtual machine" is that it can have multiple users logged in at the same time. Right? So, that could effectively expand the number of licenses available to your staff.

If you have a single stand alone machine, that other people access remotely (through remote desktop), I think that is a work around for the issue. Because, I believe RDT only allows for a single user at once.

I read their EULA and it doesn't specifically prohibit it. I'm thinking that they don't like it because it devalues their more expensive, annual network license - which they're right about, it's exactly my aim to avoid that (legally).

Keep in mind that most of these companies do NOT write their own license protection software. Rather they license the software from a company that specializes in license protection. So, these engineering software companies are somewhat restricted in what they can do with their license protection.

Disclaimer:
I worked for RISA Technologies for 16 years (before they were taken over by the evil galactic empire) and was involved in virtually every aspect of the program's development. Including license protection algorithms. Also, I currently work for SAP / CSI and have for the last 3.5 years. So, I've seen licensing from a couple of different (but similar) perspectives. I don't wish to specifically endorse either product on Eng-Tips, but if I slip up and some bias shows, please take what I say on structural engineering software issues with an appropriate level of skepticism.

 

[milkshakelake]

So, one of the main issues with a "virtual machine" is that it can have multiple users logged in at the same time. Right?

It only allows one user that remotely logs in, same as a physical computer. The original user gets kicked off when another user logs in. The server can run multiple virtual machines if it has the horsepower, each running Windows and a copy of the software, but that would require multiple spSlab standalone licenses and multiple Windows licenses. I already run VMs for other reasons, not for getting around licenses and stuff. I was just thinking of adapting the use to this case, which I'm leaning towards not doing.

Linux is different because it's free and unlicensed in the first place. For Windows, it's one user per copy, no matter what. I'm pretty sure Microsoft themselves don't want multiple users on one of their licenses.

With that said, I think I'll still use a physical computer so I don't get on the wrong side of the fence. A Windows VM running on a Windows server knows it's a VM and the structural licensing software might be able to pick up on that.

 

[NotDeadYet]

They probably don't want you to put it on a VM because of the ease of portability and duplication.

Their website says the license is for the machine, so when you replace the machine every however many years, you have to buy a new license. If it is on a VM, you upgrade the host, move the VM to the new host and continue using the same license.

You could also run multiple copies of the VM simultaneously and their licensing server might not be able to tell since both sessions are being run from a "computer" with the same IP, MAC, and hardware IDs. For example, I have duplicated VMs in the past expecting the Windows guest OS to prompt for a new activation key and even running them simultaneously over the course of several months it never happened.

That being said - while it is way more convenient to use a VM, you are probably better off going the route of using a dedicated physical computer. Licensing lawsuits are piracy lawsuits, and throughout history the courts have rarely been nice to pirates.