SPT BORING LOG QUESTIONS 2

[HELPDEB]

Hi,
I would be so very thankful if there is someone that would kindly assist me with a few answers to an engineering investigation we had done to our property in reference to sinkholes. We live in Florida and sinkholes are very prevelent in our neighborhood. On one of my boring logs, it showed 13.5 feet of poorly graded sand then a layer of limestone until the depth of 40 feet. Between 40 and 48 feet, the substance symbol was white, showing no material at all, with no recovery. The blow counts at 40 feet were all indicated as WOH values and the N value was indicated as a WOH value as well. At 48 feet there is 1 foot of clay and then once again limestone. We have several signs of settling and shifting movements on our property. They also showed an anomaly from their GPR diagram that is over half the length of our house that stated it had paleosinkhole like conditions. The boring log showed only sandy and loose soils, no clay subsurface, then finally limestone at 68 feet. They also included a diagram in my report of where grout injection points should go, however there was no reference to that diagram in the table of contents. I am confused. If anyone can be of assistance or offer any links I would be so appreciative. My home is still cracking and settling further and I just don't know what to do. Thank you for any and all help.
Deb

 

[Focht3]

Welcome, Deb. First, let me tell you that this forum is an engineer-to-engineer forum; so don't expect a lot of responses to your request. Second, please don't post your message in more than one forum - that's a real no-no. I understand your concern for your home, but please have some patience. Multi-posting is a good way to get banned from the site...

Before I begin to comment, please understand that my questions and comments may seem pretty blunt. They are not meant to hurt or insult, only get you to an answer in the shortest possible time. (I'm a three finger typist...)

First, we cannot substitute for a local expert on a problem like yours. You need someone who is both qualified and who understands the local conditions. Someone local that you can consult with. You will have to pay for this service, just like you pay to see a doctor.

How long have you owned the home? When was it built? When did you begin to experience problems? Are lawyers involved yet?

You have a geotechnical report. Who selected and hired the geotechnical engineering firm? If they are your consultant, why won't you listen to their advice? Did you hire the cheapest rather than the most qualified, and now you have "buyer's remorse"? (This is a common problem for homeowners.)

Hire another engineer to review their work - see what they say. You may get the same answer, but at least you won't wonder. Or you may be told not to waste your money - the house is doomed. That is also a possibility. Or you may hear that a cheaper fix is available. (This is a very unlikely outcome from the limited information you have provided.)

If someone else hired the geotechnical engineer, then please explain the circumstances.

Let us hear from you - in one forum only, please!

 

[TJWATKINSPG]

HELPDEB, I live in the Tampa area, I have read several reports recently from an insurance company that claims that due the number of claims, there are no valid sinkhole claims in the state of Florida. The company has issued the declaration that it will not pay any claims in Florida. The courts in general have disagreed. Please seek a second opinion if the engineering report was bought by your insurance company. ( For everyones notice I am not available for this type of work. I am employed in the education arena. I still maintain my Professional Status at my own expense. ) The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude

 

[Focht3]

Deb -

If TJWATKINSPG is correct and the report was provided by your homeowner's insurance company, then you definitely need a second opinion! (Based on my experience with insurance claims here in Texas, I doubt the report was prepared for an insurance company since it seems to obligate them to fix the home. But I may be wrong on that point -) The following discussion assumes that you are dealing with an insurance claim.

In my experience, you should probably find a good, ethical lawyer familiar with these types of claims - first. The lawyer will know "the lay of the land" - and which engineers you should not hire. Unfortunately, some engineers will take a position solely based on who hires them, not the merits of the case. The lawyer will advise you to any important legal milestones - like statutes of limitations - that you may be facing.

If this is an insurance issue, you may be in for a long fight. Keep your chin up, and keep smilin'!

 

[HELPDEB]

Dear All,
Thank you so much for your responses. Yes, the engineering company was hired by my insurance company. I have talked to a specialist that has agreed that the 8 foot pocket of "air" on my one of my boring logs is a sign of void/karst activity. After 8 days and no response from my insurance company in reference to the questions I posted here, I have contacted an ethical and reputable attorney that specializes in sinkholes. Thank you all so very much for not just responding to my thread, as I know you are very busy professionals and your time is very valuable, but myself and my family thank you also for giving us the courage to pursue this further.

Deb

 

[sinkholeorg]

If you are looking for insurance claim information regarding sinkhole testing on residential property try here

http://www.sinkhole.org

The site deals with homeowner insurance claims.

Also it sounds like your insurance company has already out lined a grouting program to remediate the property. i don't understand want the problem is because if they have already outlaid a remdiation program but it has not been implemented
so i think that you should go with the engineering companies repair plan and let them handle the headache.

 

[Focht3]

Hmmm,

Not necessarily good advice. The insurance company may have excluded damage to the home from their payment, or the proposed plan may not fix the house but let the insurance company off the hook.

Keep in mind that most, if not all, of the engineering firms that do this kind of work for insurance companies are not providing sealed repair plans. They are only providing their client (the insurance company) with what they think is needed to fix the house. As such, they are not liable if it doesn't work.

The property owner must proceed with caution, or risk getting burned - badly. They need the advice of a good lawyer.

 

[TJWATKINSPG]

I agree with Focht3 here. There are a couple of flags that indicate missing information. First was that from the info given the subsidence is active. The mention of a paleosink is unusual if there is active movement of load bearing soils from under the foundation. Second is that there is mention of one drawing for proposed repairs. I am guessing that if the drawing were supported with a in-depth section about the repair then the homeowner would not be as concerned and simply have the insurance company do the repair. Florida has a goofy law on the books that, as I understand it, puts the burden of proof on the Insurance company not the homeowner for discerning the cause of subsidence. The presentation of data then that showed voids beneath the structure without comment as to why it did (or did not)affect the foundation was curious. Second opinions are accepted in the medical practice, why not in enginnering? (unless it's that what doctors do they call Practice)

The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude

 

[HELPDEB]

Thank you all. I had 3 additional experts review my report and they all agreed, hands down, that my home absolutely had active sinkhole activity. Thanks for the advice. It is a shame that the engineering firm that did my investigation is getting away with deceiving innocent homeowner.

Thanks So Very Much Again!!
Deb

 

[BigH]

HELPDEB - thanks for the closure!

 

[Focht3]

Yes - thanks for the follow-up.

This is a long shot, but if you think the engineering firm engaged in deceitful or negligent behavior, then you should report them to the Florida Board of Professional Engineers. A link to their web site is below:

http://www.fbpe.org

But don't get your hopes up - getting the Board to sanction an engineer can be pretty tough. Still, you never know!

 

[HELPDEB]

Thanks again for the help...my initial report showed a paleosink over 1/2 the length of our home. 2 out of the 3 drilling sights had extremely low blow counts/low N values and several WOH values. All 3 drilling sights had loss of circulation. My initial report included a detailed grouting/injection diagram with no reference made to it in the report. When I asked the main engineer of that firm he said it was a simple mistake tht the diagram had been included and that the 8 foot deep void in my front yard was normal as well. Two out of the 3 additional experts I had reveiw my report sighted 2 additional large anomolys on my GPR imaging that were not referenced in my report nor were they investigated. That is why I am so concerned.
Thanks again...Deb

 

[Focht3]

Report the errors to the State Board. Sounds like a "negligent act" to me.

 

[Grouser]

HELPDEB
I am a Florida registered civil engineer. Please contact the Florida Board of Professional Engineers if you feel the report is negligent or misleading.