Stamp / Seal on Study Work 2

[ZeroSeq]

Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone knows off the top of their head or can point to the specific engineering act clause stating what work *specifically* requires the seal of a professional engineer.

The work I'm looking for clarification on is some technical study work not related to any type of construction (although within the industrial sector).

It is obvious that any design calculations for the purposes of constructing require an engineer's seal. However, where I'm not entirely sure is for the case where a technical study is conducted for the purposes of developing operational procedures, business cases, etc. Additionally, where exactly would PLC programming, development of HMI screens, programming of network switches / firewalls, etc. fall?

I'm mainly looking for Texas, Wyoming and Illinois.


Thanks in advance.

 

[Ron]

Most states have similar provisions. If you provide a report, study, design or etc. to a client in the public realm or if you provide such to a municipality, you are likely required to sign and seal the study, report or design. Each of the states you mention has specific statutes with their definition of engineering services and the associated requirements. The state requirements are often contained in two parts....a statutory practice act and then specific rules of the governing board of engineers. They are online.

 

[IRstuff]

Most state laws are pretty stringent.

ANYTHING produced by someone calling themselves an "engineer" "engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work" requires a license, and ostensibly, a seal or signature.

Case in point is the self-proclaimed "engineer" who published an analysis of incorrect traffic light timing:

https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/

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[ZeroSeq]

Thanks for the replies.

I've gone through several state engineering acts and yes, the provisions are generally congruent.

However, where I'm not getting a clear consensus on is where the industrial exemptions apply. I have rarely, if ever, seen study work (ex. FEED, risk assessments, budgetary evaluations, etc.) with a stamp within the mining and petrochemical sectors.

Would anyone have insight into the industrial exemptions and how they apply to employers vs. consultants?

The below threads provide some good info but I'm not able to draw a concrete conclusion:

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=189187

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=416389

 

[SWComposites]

It is only required for engineering for public entities. Not required for industrial uses. For instance licensing and sealing are not required for anything related to commercial or military aircraft. Same for autos. Etc.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Would anyone have insight into the industrial exemptions and how they apply to employers (Do you mean "employees"?) vs. consultants?

The industrial exemption is not about the the type work (e.g. studies vs. designs), it address who is the engineer's employer.
If the engineer is an employee of the industrial company and the work is for in-house purposes, the industrial exemption applies no matter what it is (designs, studies, modifications, etc.).
A possible exception: If work for the in-house project affects another party, the industrial exemption may or may not apply.

If the engineer is a consultant's employee, the industrial exemption does not apply for any work. The fact that the consultant's client is the industrial company does not qualify the consultant for the industrial exemption.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[IRstuff]

Industrial exemption in California covers consultants:

(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

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[CWB1]

If the engineer is a consultant's employee, the industrial exemption does not apply for any work. The fact that the consultant's client is the industrial company does not qualify the consultant for the industrial exemption.

Incorrect. The industrial exemption applies to all consulting not offered directly to the public (private citizens) or municipalities. Most consultants in industry do not have have a PE.

 

[cvg]

even with mining clients, i typically stamp and sign, even though technically it is not required. your professional liability is virtually the same whether you do or don't stamp

 

[EnergyProfessional]

You should with consult the entity receiving the study what they require. If I as a P.E. draw on a napkin over a beer at a party how to install an AC unit, it doesn't mean I have to stamp it.

If you take this napkin and use it to get a building permit, the building inspection office will tell you it needs to be stamped (when the building is large enough to require so).

An example would be soil borings. the soil boring study itself doesn't have to be stamped. the foundation design that is based on that has to be stamped to get the permit. The foundation designer COULD request the soil boring study to be stamped as a CYA measure, but there is no legal requirement. Ultimately it is the foundation designer's responsibility.

The above may be wrong, but is till made this statement as a PE. But I'm not stamping this thread

 

[cvg]

generally soil boring studies are always stamped. I have yet to see one that wasnt

Most consultants in industry do not have have a PE.

I work for a consulting firm that works for a large number of industrial clients. nearly all our engineers are registered.

 

[fel3]

In California, the industrial exemption does not apply to civil and structural engineering consultants to private clients, and may not apply to electrical and mechanical engineering consultants.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[dauwerda]

Quote:
If the engineer is a consultant's employee, the industrial exemption does not apply for any work. The fact that the consultant's client is the industrial company does not qualify the consultant for the industrial exemption.

Incorrect. The industrial exemption applies to all consulting not offered directly to the public (private citizens) or municipalities. Most consultants in industry do not have have a PE.

The first statement is true in some states and not true in others.
The second statement is true in some states and not true in others.

In the structural realm I would guess that almost all consultants for any industry do have PE's on staff that are stamping their drawings and reports (I haven't come across one that doesn't yet). I believe most states consider engineering consultants to be providing engineering to the public whether their client(s) is an industrial client or not - at least in the structural scope.

 

[glass99]

We design indoor skydiving wind tunnels - the building that the tunnel goes into has a PE stamp on the structure and HVAC components, but the wind tunnel itself is not PE stamped (though a heavily engineered item) because it is consider to be a "machine". I am a PE and we design the glass components for the wind tunnels, but have never stamped one with 80+ of these things built around the US and the world. This has been accepted by many very picky jurisdictions including Los Angeles and Chicago.

The work I'm looking for clarification on is some technical study work not related to any type of construction (although within the industrial sector).

What is the actual thing you are looking at? It's a little hard to discuss in the abstract.

 

[ZeroSeq]

What is the actual thing you are looking at? It's a little hard to discuss in the abstract.

Study work in question would be for power system related analyses (harmonic studies, transient motor starting, loadflow, short circuit calculations, reliability assessments, etc.). The study work is not directly related to an installation, but produced mainly to give an industrial customer direction in where to put funding.

 

[FreddyNurk]

So the perspective would be that a client would engage a firm such as yours to undertake a study (assessment?) of the power system, and could potentially use such a study to either justify additional capital expenditure or to justify doing nothing on the basis of the risks pertaining to the power system as presented. If something were to go wrong, it would likely be argued by the client that they relied on a Professional Engineer's perspective in undertaking the study.

The above is a specific case obviously, however I'd expect that most Engineering Boards would consider that such a study would constitute professional engineering advice and thus be required to be undertaken by a suitably credentialed professional. Details of who and how PLC Code, HMI presentation for machines and processes are undertaken is a lot more grey, unfortunately.

EDMS Australia

 

[glass99]

I'm not sure that I would offer to stamp a planning study. We do concept design quite a bit and do not stamp them. Only final designs get stamped.

This is only a planning study and detailed calculations are not completed. Even though big decisions might be based on this, a PE stamp implies a level of granularity of the calculations and engineering which have not been completed.

 

[cvg]

most engineering boards do not make a distinction between planning or final design. your only way out is to use the exemption, if you have it

A. A registrant shall place a permanently legible imprint of the registrant’s seal and signature on the following:
6. Either the cover, title, index, or table of contents page, or first sheet of any report, specification, or other professional document prepared by a registrant or the registrant’s bona fide employee;
7. The signature line of any letter or other professional document prepared by a registrant, or the registrant’s bona fide employee;

 

[IRstuff]

Anything you publish runs the risk of being taken out of context, so caveats, like a watermarked "Preliminary" should be applied.

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