Stamping non-essential engineering documents 1

[PetroBob]

I'm being asked to provide a professional engineering stamp on non-essential engineering documents such as instrument datasheets, equipment datasheets, etc. I say non-essential, because these datasheets are required deliverables for some projects, but not others. Is this normal or should I push back?
In my career I've seen thousands of these datasheets issued without an engineering stamp. I'm not sure our organization can operate competitively if simple documents must be reviewed and stamped by a professional engineer, while our competitors are not doing so.
Advice welcome, thanks!

 

[TGS4]

Your information indicated that you are from Alberta. Therefore, I would direct you to your corporate PPMP (Professional Practice Management Plan). That will guide you. There is also guidance from APEGA on which documents require authentication.

 

[GregLocock]

Sounds like they want a CMA signature. Charge them full hourly rate and challenge every spelling mistake, at your full hourly rate. As his employer once told a friend of mine 'if a client sees a spelling mistake why should they trust the typed in numbers in the report?'


Cheers

Greg Locock


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[BrianPetersen]

If you weren't behind or somehow involved in whatever process led up to whatever information is on those data sheets ... then NOPE.

 

[cvg]

Not sure about Canadian laws, but in the US, in most states - you can't stamp the data sheets since they were not prepared under your supervision. However, if you review them and issue a letter accepting them, then the letter might need to be stamped. Note that the stamp is not applied because your client requests it. It is not optional, the stamp is required by law, regardless if your client requests it or not.

 

[PetroBob]

Thanks for the advice folks, however it doesn't quite answer my question. What I want to know is, has anyone seen datasheets that are stamped? And more generally, which less-critical engineering documents should or should not be stamped?

The question about who prepared the work versus who stamps it, is not the matter I'm asking about here. (In this instance I did supervise the engineer-in-training who completed the work.)

Thanks TGS4, I have reviewed APEGA "Practise Standard for Authenticating Professional Documents". It looks like whether you stamp a datasheet (or any document) hinges on whether it is a "professional document" based on "engineering work". It's clear that an engineering stamp is required on construction documents based on engineering calculations (structural drawings, piping and instrumentation diagrams, etc). Not so clear for documents where information is taken from professional documents - datasheets are based on info from process flow diagrams, line lists, mechanical equipment lists, etc - but are non-critical documents that are sometimes excluded from projects.

Is an engineering stamp normally provided on a purchase order?

A datasheet is a document that will normally be included in the PO, or alternatively the equipment specifications will need to be provided in some other way in the PO (block of text, email, brochure, model number, or somesuch).

 

[swertel]

PetroBob,

From my experience, I've never seen an engineering stamp on a PO.
I have also never seen a stamp on a datasheet (if my definition of datasheet is the same as yours). Datasheets are typically marketing material, and rarely is an engineer in the approval process for the datasheet. Too many typos in parts catalogs, for example, to risk your license and liability on stamping a datasheet.
If your definition of a datasheet is the raw data from a test, again the answer is no. The engineering stamp goes on the final report that explains the test and the interpretation of the results (of the raw data), not the data itself.

In general, I don't stamp anything that I don't want the liability in maintaining. Because 1) I need to be in integral part of the process (or project) that created the document I'm stamping, and 2) I need to keep a record of everything I stamped. Both of those can end up being a very large burden.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

 

[SNORGY]

The more APEGA gets involved to clarify stuff, the more confusing the issues get.

I'm not a fan...and I'm a Permit Holder, have been for 20 years.

The way it used to work - and the way it made sense to me - was:

If you do something as an engineer that someone else pays for, receives and uses towards making a decision regarding the implementation of something, you ought to be prepared to stamp it. If you're not, then you ought not to be doing it in the first place. That's why I have so much heartburn with "technologists" and "technicians" doing stuff that, simply put, they lack the credentials to do. Elitist, perhaps, but it pains me to see folks who derive a sense of entitlement to "do stuff" but are conveniently able to duck the accountability that goes with it.

To me, my stamp is my statement that says, "Here, I think this piece of work is correct, and I'm proud of it because I think I've done a good piece of work, which, by the way, I am actually qualified to do.". So, if someone wants me to do a data sheet and stamp it, then I do it and stamp it. The acid test, in my mind, is:

"OK, I've put something on a piece of paper that someone who pays me is going to use to make a decision. Would they be able to make that decision without what's on this piece of paper that I've been paid to give them?" If no, then it's stamp-worthy. If yes, then they didn't need me in the first place and they can go do their own thing, whatever that is.

I think data sheets and calculations always fall into a gray area, it's a bit overkill. That said, I have learned to simplify my life by being prepared to stamp whatever I am being asked to do, which, by extension, means that I don't do stuff that I'm not prepared to stamp. One perspective directly supports the other.

The minute, for example, someone says, "I'll do it but I won't stamp it" is the minute, in my mind, that they cease being an engineer.

 

[TGS4]

I completely agree with SNORGY. Perhaps it would change your perspective to rename datasheet to "design basis document". Others are taking the days on said datasheet and creating designs that will, in turn, be stamped. Either the data on the design basis document is engineered and correct, or you ought not to have put it down in writing.

In my opinion, there's an epidemic of under-stamping going on, which leads to engineers taking a blasé attitude towards their work, which leads to problems. If you, as an engineer, do work that is worthy of being an engineer, then you should be prepared to stamp it. (Noting that even if the document is not authenticated, you as an engineer still have responsibility for it, as if it were stamped. So your responsibility and professional liability for it is there anyways.)

 

[JAE]

If you do something as an engineer that someone else pays for, receives and uses towards making a decision regarding the implementation of something, you ought to be prepared to stamp it.

OK, I've put something on a piece of paper that someone who pays me is going to use to make a decision.

SNORGY - I think your descriptions are very good and I agree with them.

One thing I might add/adjust to your descriptions would be that the "something" that you do would have to be engineering work (as defined by your local authorities) for any of this to apply.

If I write a data sheet about possible various aesthetic treatments of precast cladding panels, for example, that isn't engineering work and thus I should never stamp something like that.

I don't know exactly what the content of these data sheets are that PetroBob (the OP) describes so can't comment directly on them.

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[SNORGY]

Agreed, JAE. My wording was not precise and I relied too much on context to convey the message.

 

[PetroBob]

Thanks for the input folks. In this instance I was referring to instrument datasheets (eg temperature gauges, pressure transmitters, level gauges & suchlike), and also mechanical equipment datasheets (eg pumps, vessels, tanks, etc). The datasheets provide technical information regarding the equipment. The technical data is taken from engineering documents (that are typically stamped). Incorrect information on the datasheet could lead to an unsuitable instrument or piece of equipment being purchased, since the datasheets are typically included in the PO.