Starting a Business on the Side - Using a Website 8

[Slugger926]

Does one pick up much business via setting up a Website?

Or is there another way to start picking up small projects on the side that would work better?

 

[JTMcC]

Slugger 926 said "We used to do 20 times the amount of work under better buisness processes 8 years ago"

Until you're invited into the heads of those making the decisions, you just don't know why these things are done. They may very well have dropped that other large chunk of business because it wasn't worth the trouble, or a hundred other possible reasons unknown to you. The decisionmakers are constantly questioned by those without sufficient info to judge the decisions made.

Those that view RDK's comments as "hostile" most likely haven't owned a succesfull business. It can be a very harsh world, that's where the phrase "nothing personal, it's business" came from, usually uttered right before delivering a crippling blow
Established buisness in an area will tolerate small start ups only while they scramble about picking up the undesirable crumbs, when you start to take a bite out of their pie, they will do what they can to (even the good honest ones)crush your enterprise (the good honest ones will do everything legally and morally within their power, the crooked ones will do whatever they think they can get away with). That's competition and at times it can be brutal.
The comments about a real or percieved advantage (using company resources) invoke a perticularly hard resonce from established business.
RDK is giving you real world advise about the proverbial "dog eat dog" aspect, that's ever present even whan people are acting very civilized in outward appearance.
I would never hire an engineer that we couldn't contact during normal hours, or had to contact at his place of employment. Our situation is probably way different than the work you are contmplating, but we regularly have spur of the moment issues that require the engineer to address/document thruought the week.
I own a field welding outfit and my website is used as a brochure for those who have already found us, but as a side note a few people have found us via a search, tho that was never the intent.

JTMcC, happily swimming with the sharks for about 13 years now.

http://www.firstratefabricators.com

 

[Slugger926]

First off - This thread has gotten way off base.

JTMcC - "Slugger 926 said "We used to do 20 times the amount of work under better buisness processes 8 years ago"

Until you're invited into the heads of those making the decisions, you just don't know why these things are done. They may very well have dropped that other large chunk of business because it wasn't worth the trouble, or a hundred other possible reasons unknown to you. The decisionmakers are constantly questioned by those without sufficient info to judge the decisions made. "

We totally understand those decisions. As you said, it is a dog eat dog world. It is self perservation of both the execs and their manpower. The headcount issue keeps both the employees #'s and the exec's job since each exec needs a certain # of headcount. These are people that lost everything as the market crumbled, and would have to start at well below their current sallaries anywhere else. Most of them probably don't care about the company these days but the people under them and their own jobs. It is a very unique situation. Also those of us that survived the slaughter did so by treating themselves as their own company and not as a normal employee. In this world, the person you think of as your friend may be trying to get you fired at the same time.
-------------------------------------------------

It is no different than playing on a collegiate baseball team. Those that best position themselves will most likely succeed. It is a balancing act.

Anyways, I just got some niche work from a friend at a fabrication shop. They don't have enough revenue to hire anyone full time. They do need someone to help design new products as they start a new line every six months to a year. It is also nothing to make a living off of since it is crumbs.

I wrote a computer program that has been in use for 10 years now at an Environmental Firm in another part of the state for flood evaluations. I can use it in this part of the state to pick up more crumbs. The real work on these has to do with the licensed surveyors, and there are no qualified engineers in this area to sign off on the calculations. This will provide a needed service to area homeowners and businesses without biting into anyone's business.

I am trying to fact find as much as possible before the collapse of our engineering department here.

It is looking more and more like I will be developing my own products, and having them fabricated at local shops. All of the fabrication shops are swamped right now due to the ramp up in the oil industry which will be a problem.

 

[JTMcC]

Slugger 926 says "We totally understand those decisions".

No, you really don't. Like 90% of employees worldwide you BELIEVE you do. It's the American way I guess. If I had kept every wrong/uninformed comment made to me on "what you need to do is.....(fill in the blank)" by people who have no idea why we make the decisions we make I'd have to build a large barn to hold the cd's.

I've watched a lot of people start a business on the side and I consider it a bad move, prone to failure due to lack of motivation and energy. When the part timer begins his day working for himself he has already (we hope) put in a good days work for his employer. I start my work day with 100% of my time and energy devoted to my business.
The part time owner will never have the notivation that a full time owner has. If I fail to hustle up a sufficient amount of work, my kids will go hungry. Literally hungry. I have nothing to fall back on. You can't buy motivation like that, and I love it.

But, good luck to you if you do it. Then you'll be able to really understand why decisions are made the way they are and the large number of influences (like the many tax concerns, lifestyle decisions, ect, ect.) most don't understand much less take into account.

JTMcC.

http://www.firstratefabricators.com

 

[mrMikee]

And to think this thread started out with a guy who just wanted to get some part time work on the side. I've seen it done in the past and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I would have liked to see a little more positive approach given to this topic instead of the egos and resentment that have crept in. Most of us who stay in this business long enough will see both good times and bad times.

Is a little help to someone who asks really too much to expect?

-Mike

 

[Slugger926]

I know it can be done. If people told my friend at this website he couldn't give 100% working at night at what turned out to be his career after a full day of chopping cotton or working peanut fields, he would have just laughed at them:

http://WWW.johnnybench.com

A
is the ATTITUDE you have every day
E
Is your EFFORT for Excellence
I
is being the best INDIVIDUAL and a accepting your responsibilities
O
is taking advantage of the OPPORTUNITIES that come your way
U
is USING the knowledge and information available to you from technology and your peers

Quote: "A slump is like a soft bed, easy to get in to, but hard to get out of! Persevere."

All things are possible, you just can't give up because others try to get in your way. There is just less to lose starting part time versus jumping out with no resources. Not everyone has a rich relative to spot them like the Paris sisters.

 

[JTMcC]

mrMikee says "Is a little help to someone who asks really too much to expect?"

I think he got quite a lot of help. Help is not always "rah rah, you can do it!" Sometimes the best help you will recieve is a heads up on some of the pitfalls that await. The statistics on business start ups that fail within 5 years are eye opening.
The best "help" I recieved before starting my business was several of the points I commented on above, given to me by an experienced contractor who had seen these things up close. When I got a chance to experience similar events I recognized what was happening and responded accordingly. Now THATS help.


JTMcC, being helpfull.

http://www.firstratefabricators.com

 

[mrMikee]

JTMcC,

Ok, you made it. We get that.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[solid7]

mrMikee: I don't agree with everything that is being said - but one thing that I DO agree with, is that whether the advice is POSITIVE or NEGATIVE, at least it's been given. Not everyone has that luxury, or the good sense to weigh it. But access to other opinions and life experiences is worth as much as gold - as it could make or break a person.

Like all things in life, there are extremes. The truth always exists somewhere in-between. A wise man realizes this, and finds it.

Good luck, Slugger926.




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[Slugger926]

This whole thread could have been broken up into three threads. There is a lot of confusing stuff in regards to starting an engineering business off right. The engineering is the easy and fun part. The insurance portion is confusing with quotes ranging from a few hundred $$ to those reaching to a few hundred thousand $$. The cheaper ones do concider they are quoting for a part time business. Then there are those inusrance that will do policies on a per project basis.

I have a blank slate in front of me, and trying to figure out which way will be best to go when it is time. I also understand the cutthroat world that some of you try to warn those entering the market on their own about. I learned to protect myself in that environment in college baseball, then again through some of the biggest company colapses in history. I could write a book on corporate survival, and the whole thing will be totally ethical (the unethical always get punished somewhere down the road).

Anyways, thanks for all the posts. I just wish that there was more education on this board about starting a new engineering business. There is plenty of advise for existing businesses.

 

[solid7]

Slugger926 - you've gotten some great advice. (ignore everything that I have said - there has been great advice from others)

Here is my final thought(s) before considering this subject exhausted.

1) Start a website - you'll need it for credibility - but don't rely on it to bring you business. (at least not for a very long time)

2) Make lots of NEW contacts. Look for them in unlikely places. But whatever you do, just look. Forget about people that you know. Pretend they don't exist - they belong to someone else. If possible, expand your sights, and look all over the nation. My business is internet based, and I solicit by actually visiting websites that I SEARCH for, or for business who don't have a site, they may be listed in supplier directories. Then, I personally write an email that shows proof of having thoughtfully considered their business, and having acquainted myself with their daily operations. It's VERY hard work, but until you have a customer base, and they start to recommend you, it's one very good way. (it definitely shows that you're serious)

3) Ignore the politics, and your personal opinions. Concentrate on making money. Remember, it's your business, you get to run it the way that you want, and you bear full responsibility for your successes and mistakes. For new businesses, it's suggested that you talk to an accountant or tax attorney before you do ANYTHING else. Even if you think you know what to do, you might be suprised at what they say - I certainly was. (they know the LOCAL regulations, not just the state and federal, and that's VERY important)

4) Talk to somebody in your area who ALREADY does what you are seeking to do. (preferrably someone on the verge of retirement) I've gotten some of my best advice from people who do EXACTLY what I do, where I do it. You don't have to be shy or uncomfortable around them. You are new, and they are old. They have nothing to fear from you, and believe me, they don't. You can't get the advice that you are looking for on a forum.

5) Insurance is subjective. It depends on your state/country, and locale, as well as the type of engineering that you perform. I, personally, make the customer pay the insurance, on a per/project basis, when I have to work/travel on site to their facility. For liability insurance pertaining to your work, I can't help you there, as I'm in a different field, and this issue (liability) doesn't affect me. Your mileage will vary, so talk to those in the know.

6) Your business start-up, should, as a matter or principle, have an exit strategy. It should be prepared to deal with either success or catastrophe, but with an extra emphasis on catastrophe. (the more likely scenario)

7) I also found an investor for my business, when I started. Someone who believed in me, and my potential to start a business, based on something that I loved. If you can secure funds, even if you don't spend them, that's a great thing to do. I can't tell you that you'll be able to do it - but if you think it's even a possibility, it's worth doing.

Again, best of luck to you. I hope that these points give you more of what you were searching for...




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[imagitec]

Rick Kitson wrote:

"If you are in any way competing against your employer and that includes offering similar services to clients not presently served by your employer. (i.e. design services to homeowners when your employer offers these same services to the non residential sector) then you are stealing business or potential business form your employer."

Although the motivation may be different, it sounds like Rick has the right management attitude to make the transition from one man operation to manager of hundreds of drones at Widget Co.

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys -

http://www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

 

[imagitec]

My reply was sarcastic and not very constructive. But I don't think many would agree with Rick's idea that starting a business in a field that your employer might someday compete in, even if you are moonlighting, is unethical. So many successful tech companies got their start that way that it's become a cliche, and I'm sure a few buggy whip companies did the same in their day. I would hate to think what the US economy would be like if they hadn't.

The part of Rick's reply that I quoted reads like standard non-compete boiler plate that is unenforceable in the states I'm familiar with, because the courts recognize a person's right to make a living.

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys -

http://www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

 

[mapelCE]

Slugger 926,

I lost track with all of the back and forth.
I've often considered doing side work myself.
I haven't because me day job is entirely too demanding and I can't give the side work the attention it needs.
The other reason, and I haven't spent much time really researching this, but I believe the Professional Engineer's Act lays down some guidelines for doing "sidework". I believe it revolves around the rates you charge and certain conflicts of interest that must be avoided. I believe the gist of their rules is to protect the independents from price gouging from those being supported by full time jobs and infrastructure. You may want to check out the Engineers Act for more info.

Hope this helps

 

[ddelaiarro]

I am a young(er) engineer who is getting sick of the typical 8-6 grind and I have also been considering trying to develop a business 'on the side' to eventually become a full-time gig. Although it went way off topic, this thread has been very helpful to me in that it let me see and hear a few things I hadn't considered.

I lost track of who said it along the way, but it is true that some of the best help you get might not be of the "Rah! Rah!" variety. A lot of people in here laid out the not-so-nice side of starting a business and some of the inevitable pitfalls and obstacles that will await you. Hearing about those and thinking about if I have the desire, energy, and overall need to overcome those will help me in my decision making process.

So, Slugger - good luck. I feel your pain and know exactly where you're at. Good luck in whatever you choose.

To those of you who have relayed your experiences - thank you! There's a lot to be learned from people who have 'been there, done that.'

 

[stanier]

Slugger926 I like the name but why the 926?

My two bobs worth from down under:

Websites Love em or hate em. I dont have one and I dont advertise. Have worked independently for over 30 years. Work in Australia and SE Asia, Middle East and Europe. Most of my work comes from word of mouth references. In fact I dont like working for anyone I dont know or who doesnt know someone I can rely upon to give a good reference. As a one man business I havent had a bad debt or claim in over thirty years. I get work via Standards Committees, my Software porvider, young guys I mentored many years previously (now are business leaders), lectures and technical papers published, networks. Dont be frightened to share you knowledge and educate others. then you become more respected in the engineering village.

Competition with your employer. Ethics are one thing and I guess you shouldnt compete unless you are the specialist and you are doing the employer a favour by being there. Personally I worked as a contractor for the first part of my career. Therefore legally and ethically I ran my own business. My clinets got good service from me although I worked for others. The first contract went for 6 years so someone was happy. Most contracts I had went for a while and then they tried to entice me to be employed. I declined because I like my independence.

Check copywright of your design. If you are an employee you may find that legally your employer owns the copywright even if you do the design in your own time. Conversely if you are a Contractor and you design something in an office of your 'employer" you own the design. This may be very important if you invent something of worth. Also provides a headache for the employer.

As for competition , if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Getting jobs isnt about undercutting. If a client gets a job done on price alone he is fool. Personally I dont charge the low price and I am flat out like a lizard drinking.

Last thing nothing is "on the side". Get out of that mindset. New ventures are a parallel operation as equally as important, if not more important, as any other endeavour. By using the term "on the side" you immediately put the activitity down in your mind whereas you need to elevate it to get it off the ground. Aim to be the best in your field and dont worry about competition, let them worry about you.. Good Luck

By the way I publish papers on a website for all to learn

http://www.pipingdesigners.com

(Risks of Surge in Pipeline Systems). Why have a website when you can contribute to and benefit from such a well respected offering.

 

[jmw]

I too have a web site but I am hard pressed to evaluate how much benefit I get fom it directly.

The main problem is to be "found" by the search engines and there are a lot better (affordable) ways to be found than paying for some expensive company who will "guarantee" you hits.

Even using the free registering with Google and Yahho doesn't do much to get you on the first page, they too now want to be paid.

Option one: look for those web sites that allow free listings;
Option two: "blogging".

If I do a keyword search for my business, top of the list usually comes my postings here and it is from postings here that I have co-incidentally received some good opportunities.

Do a keyword search on your own busines and see which gets nearest to the top of the search; your website or your posts.

Off course, once you are generating enough income to divert some to "marketting" you can sign up with the expensive websites.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[solid7]

Yes, that's right - it does take some work to get a website to produce good results - just like anything else in business.

Your website needs to rank well to be of value. To do that, you WILL have to spend SOME money. Maybe more for some than others, but money IS a factor, especially in the major search engines.

Google rankings are hard to get. First, there is the notorious "sandbox" effect. I won't get into that, but my website spent nine months there, before miraculously appearing at the top of the rankings, only to start slipping. I still haven't figured out how to stay up. (at least, not within easy grasp)

To really get good Google rankings, it is IMPERATIVE that you have a listing at dmoz.org, which in and of itself, is a hard thing. There are no guaranteed listings, and it can be up to 3 years of waiting, and even then, some sites don't get listed. (although some may be listed in days) Sites that have a dmoz listing, with their keywords in the title, tend to "stick" at the top of the Google rankings. In essence, a dmoz ranking is almost a guaranteed Google ranking.

However, for good web results, you have to do the same thing that you would do for anything - diversify. Don't put all of your eggs in one basket. You need word of mouth, the yellow pages, pay per click campaigns, business cards, and much, much more. Driving traffic to the internet is much like inviting people to an open house. The sign in the front yard is usually the LEAST effective method.

Blogging, also, is good, but it's NOT a cure-all, nor a magic bullet. (see previous comment) The one thing that may be of most use to a new website, however, is Pay per click advertising. It may be expensive at first, but that's how I got most of my new customers. (offset the cost with an on-page ad campaign, such as Google Adsense)

The best strategy is a diversified one. I, personally, chose to learn the ins and outs of the whole process. Others may choose to hire. In either case, I will assure anyone, that you can make TONS of money from a website. But it isn't magic. Remember the famous movie line - "if you build it, they will come." Like most everything else in Hollywood, that is crap!

Bottom line - it TAKES money to MAKE money!!! I've spent almost a year getting my "online" business setup, and I'm just starting to make money at it. Concentrate FIRST on your base, and pay your dues while you wait for the website to pay off. It will be worth it in the end!

I too have a web site but I am hard pressed to evaluate how much benefit I get fom it directly.

This is the easiest part! Evaluating the benefit is the most valuable way to ensure it!

You MUST, MUST, MUST, have a statistics program, like Awstats, to analyze your web traffic. Most service providers will offer such a program with a hosting plan. This program is INVALUABLE for determining:

A) Where your traffic comes from
B) How much traffic you are receiving
C) How long your customers stick around
D) How they found your page (by link, ad campaign, direct URL, etc)
E) How often they come back
F) If the search engines are spidering your site
G) WHICH search engines are sending you traffic
H) What time - month, hour, etc - that you get "peak" traffic

And on, and on it goes...

If you learn to use that, you'll find how to "tweak" your page. I am currently being found by over 110 different keywords or keyword phrases. I use this information to optimize new pages that I add to my site, and to improve existing content. It tells me what my customers are looking for when they find me!

This is pure data mining gold! If you are really in touch with your business, you MUST embrace this sort of information. If you don't know how, find someone who does, or LEARN. If you are already making so much money, that it doesn't seem worth your time, it's probably just a matter of time before someone else starts cutting into your business. (maybe even me!)

Good luck!




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