Steel Shop Drawing Quality 1

[Hacksaw82]

Hi all, I was hoping to get some insight on something.

I have a renovation project, fairly small in size, but with some added complexity. The fee wasn't high enough for the 'big guys' to come out to play (general contractor, or subs) so we are stuck with some lower end contractors, in terms of experience.

Without saying too much, we are removing the wood floor system of a typical mid-west city brick storefront building (1920s probably), and replacing it with steel. We are removing the second level wood floor, and creating a clear story. We are putting steel back to replace the restistance the wood floor was bracing the walls with. The design and drawings went great, it looked like it was going to be a beautiful project. Then we got the steel shop drawings...

Basically they are a direct redraw of my drawings. No piece sheets, no erection type plans. They didn't even bother calling out the grades of steel. We rejected them three times and now the project is severely behind schedule. After a few meetings it became clear the contractor didn't know what industry standards were. We even sent him shops from other jobs, and told him, this is what we expect. But still no luck, he seems content to just copy what ever I give him, and say 'i will build it right in the field'.

We worked with it enough, and we think now at least he gets what the project is. But what standards are out there for shop drawings? Does the AISC have something the contractors are required to follow? I've looked through the 13th edition, and they do have sections on shop drawings, but provide no specific requirements. The project specs were equally toothless. Should my company add more specific language for submittal quality? We kept saying these don't conform to industry standards, but couldn't find anywhere on what those standards are, or why the contractor must follow them.

As always, you thoughts are very appriciated!

 

[Teguci]

Pending doom. I work hard to meet the clients needs but when you get amateurs doing the work, extra engineering time will not make things all better. If you required the contractor to meet certain requirements and he is not then keep rejecting the submittal. If you didn't have requirements set in the contract then you can make recommendations, but enforcing them becomes a legal risk.

In either case, let your client know that you have significant misgivings with his "hired cousin" and suggest he hire someone else to prevent his investment from becoming a pile of rubble. As an engineer you are responsible for the compliance of the final product. How it gets there can't be your responsibility (ie you have no authority over means and methods).

 

[mijowe]

rock and a hard place, with schedule now an issue it is sometimes hard to get any cooperation the the owner/client as well.

keep the client informed, and get compensated for the extra time you are spending holding the subs hand.

I have had subs that wanted to fabricate beams columns in the field.

 

[dik]

Can the contractor do the work with shop drawings that are inadequate for you? If only a small job, then this is possible. The owner has gained the financial 'benefit?' of the 'lowest' price.

It may be the amount of work does not warrant full blown shop drawings.

Dik

 

[Hacksaw82]

I agree with all of your sediments. I realize this is a horrible situation, but I was wondering what governs steel shop drawing preparation? Can I give them rules, to which they should live up to? If I just keep rejecting them, and saying they don't meet standard, I can see them having the argument that the standards arent clearly defined.

Dik, I see what you are saying, but I feel the complexity of the job requires a little more. We have some complicated connection, which are exposed, and I'd prefer him not to 'field fit' with a torch and a big hammer. We've done plenty of small jobs, where just a E sheet works, but this is more.

 

[connectegr]

Refer to AISC Code of Standard Practice. Section 4 provides the information expected on steel shop drawings and erection drawings.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[dik]

Is the steel fabricator, by spec or drawing notes bound into providing a level of shop drawings?

If the connections are complicated, are they suitably detailed on your structural drawings?

Dik

 

[pittguy12]

I have worked with my share of small contractors to have seen this regularly. In addition to the AISC requirements for what information is included in a shop drawing, we have made a few changes to the specifications we issue with the project now that have helped alleviate this... 1) we explicitly state in the submittal section that reproductions of contract drawings are not acceptable, 2) we require only AISC certified fabricators which generally means guys working out of their garage don't count. While we sometimes wave the AISC certification requirement because it is tough to find for small projects, we make the contractor propose this to us at which time we get to tell them "we waive that requirement but fully expect that we are going to get ____ in the submittal". It's a little deceptive but what we have found works best to get the quality we are expecting. In the end, we will work with the contractors to make the project go forward but we just try to get out in front of this before its an issue. Generally, the clients have appreciated us addressing this issue up front.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

You get what you pay for!!

 

[ztengguy]

Have the owner get invoked, if he isn't happy at the end, he can warn them he is going to reject it, based on your input.

 

[JStephen]

On completely unrelated work, we formerly had a situation where the guy that drew the drawings was also the guy that did the layout in the shop. Consequently, some fundamental dimensions that you would assume would be on there were omitted, because he would work out what it was just as easily in the shop as he could in the office.

 

[paddingtongreen]

There was a time when the steel fabricators used layout lofts where they laid out bracing, stairs and other complex items, full size, only showing main intersection points on the drawings. I know one company had one when I left the UK in 1955.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

 

[IFRs]

I had a similar issue with a contractor. I rejected his drawings so many times I lost count. They tried to copy mine and I objected loudly, threatening to excuse myself from the project. They said "show us what you want" and I refused, doing what the owner hired me to do which was to review their drawings (hand sketches ad first and then beginner cad efforts), clearly indicating what was not to code each time, pointing out the code sections so they would learn. They clearly did not understand the details of the code. Through a cooperative working arrangement, we got through it but the owner had to pay for extra engineering and extra field inspection that resulted in extra field re-work. The contractor most likely did not make any money on the job but the end result was acceptable.

 

[dik]

ztengguy... have to be a bit careful to make sure you can reject the work... If nothing was stipulated, then he may have fulfilled his contract and the owner may be in breach...

Dik

 

[Hacksaw82]

I'm not sure how much teeth we have on the quality requirements. We did say the work was to conform to AISC tandrds, but maybe in the future we need to add stronger language on the quality of the drawings themselves.

I did detail 90% of the connections, and just left a few double clips and a shear splice for them to do. All the informations is there in some form, I'm just hoping that their execution is better than their drawings (breath not held).

I think I'll suggest pittguy's tatie to the bosses, and see where it goes for the future.

Thanks for the insight!