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STEMUP 2
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That sort of depends on if you have a general X engineering degree, or a specific area of X engineering degree. I see fewer companies desiring to teach a general X engineer, then just hiring a specific area X engineering degree. After all it costs money to train someone.
Actually, I don't see the need for Unemployment Preparation; the abundance of engineers will drive the salaries down enough that there should be plenty of low-paying engineering jobs.
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MikeHalloran
Mechanical
I thought that already happened.
... to me.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
... to me.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
I'm not sure that it matters that you get the more specific x engineering degree (as in a masters of) within a general (bachelors) engineering degree. If there were more mentors willing to mentor then you would most likely get more of an education at work than at school. From my experience most college professors have little real world experience and most of their experience is within the more advanced book learning or research. Not that their is any thing wrong with that and that is not always the case.
It seems that the old school guys still need to work to secure their future after retirement if there is such a thing. And what does it profit them to teach younger guys their craft and lose their top dog stature and pay grade. That is not necessarily the business model I was exposed to but that is the reality as I see it. In fact there were a few old school guys laid off recently at my former company. 41 year experience, 30 years experience, and 14 years experience with the same company. With the lesser experience having 15 years more elsewhere. Now it could very well be due to the still poor economy where they are located or poor business practices.
I think the old school companies will/have been facing difficult times adjusting with their old school mentalities and business practices in spite of newer technologies that expedite the work process. The younger guys they trained or they had trained with newer technology understand there is a much better way to perform the work process with less overhead and either leave on their on accord to do this own their own or get removed from the situation and decide to do it on their own.
The lack of a thriving economy hurt them all but who do you think it hurt worse?
It seems that the old school guys still need to work to secure their future after retirement if there is such a thing. And what does it profit them to teach younger guys their craft and lose their top dog stature and pay grade. That is not necessarily the business model I was exposed to but that is the reality as I see it. In fact there were a few old school guys laid off recently at my former company. 41 year experience, 30 years experience, and 14 years experience with the same company. With the lesser experience having 15 years more elsewhere. Now it could very well be due to the still poor economy where they are located or poor business practices.
I think the old school companies will/have been facing difficult times adjusting with their old school mentalities and business practices in spite of newer technologies that expedite the work process. The younger guys they trained or they had trained with newer technology understand there is a much better way to perform the work process with less overhead and either leave on their on accord to do this own their own or get removed from the situation and decide to do it on their own.
The lack of a thriving economy hurt them all but who do you think it hurt worse?
" And what does it profit them to teach younger guys their craft and lose their top dog stature and pay grade."
I'm sorry and disappointed that you think that. I could, and do, mentor and teach younger engineers, because when I retire, they are the ones that have to carry the burden. I have no fear of losing my "top dog" stature, since it took decades to get to my state of experience, and few, if any, younger engineers can get to that level with just the help I give them.
And as for terminations and layoffs, just blowing away only younger engineers is rarely done, if for nothing else than the self interest of the person(s) doing the layoffs. Older engineers tend to be more specialized, and if the business is no longer aligned with their skills, what could possibly be the motivation to keep them suck at the corporate teat if they're no longer contributing to the bottom line? And that's the key, the "bottom line." If a manager cannot clearly see how a layoff affects the bottom line or contract performance, then they're in the wrong position.
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I'm sorry and disappointed that you think that. I could, and do, mentor and teach younger engineers, because when I retire, they are the ones that have to carry the burden. I have no fear of losing my "top dog" stature, since it took decades to get to my state of experience, and few, if any, younger engineers can get to that level with just the help I give them.
And as for terminations and layoffs, just blowing away only younger engineers is rarely done, if for nothing else than the self interest of the person(s) doing the layoffs. Older engineers tend to be more specialized, and if the business is no longer aligned with their skills, what could possibly be the motivation to keep them suck at the corporate teat if they're no longer contributing to the bottom line? And that's the key, the "bottom line." If a manager cannot clearly see how a layoff affects the bottom line or contract performance, then they're in the wrong position.
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I'm glad you are a mentor and was not trying to say that is always the case. I did find a mentor as well at that job. I am and would be more than happy to teach most anybody anything I know. Although there are some less experienced that don't understand there is not always a standard operating procedure depending on what problems you need to solve. But I also am willing to continue working for a living and learning always. I've come to like the phrase "if your not learning and growing you might as well be dying".
However the corporate teet suckers do exists and were very bad at my old company. There simply were no younger empolyees that would stay. I was probably the first young grad that had stayed beyond a year or two in a long time. The younger previously experienced ones also seemed to leave after a short time and more than once started their own companies. We joked that the company was an Administrative company rather than an engineering company because lots of Administrative people there made more than a few of us.
They laid off three upper level managers this year at the same time as mentioned previously and they did the same probably about five years ago again with long time management employees. And it was not just that company. The second company I worked for had a revolving door for all staff/management for the most part regardless of the economy.
And it is true if your expecting to come out of school making what is advertised as starting engineering salaries companies probably can't afford to train you. I was making very little as a new grad and for the 9 years that followed so my learning on the job was not that expensive for my company.
However the corporate teet suckers do exists and were very bad at my old company. There simply were no younger empolyees that would stay. I was probably the first young grad that had stayed beyond a year or two in a long time. The younger previously experienced ones also seemed to leave after a short time and more than once started their own companies. We joked that the company was an Administrative company rather than an engineering company because lots of Administrative people there made more than a few of us.
They laid off three upper level managers this year at the same time as mentioned previously and they did the same probably about five years ago again with long time management employees. And it was not just that company. The second company I worked for had a revolving door for all staff/management for the most part regardless of the economy.
And it is true if your expecting to come out of school making what is advertised as starting engineering salaries companies probably can't afford to train you. I was making very little as a new grad and for the 9 years that followed so my learning on the job was not that expensive for my company.
In my example, the electrical engineers we hire just take longer to come up to speed than the power system engineers, which does not require a masters degree. It's just a rarity that schools teach it any more.
And yes some schools only teach it at the MS level, but several teach it at the BS level.
Someone said that teachers don't know enough about what they are teaching, and it's true. It's hard to find people who want to teach after being in an industry for many years.
Some industries do move fast, and people need to keep there skills up. But other industries don't move so fast, and learning on the job over the years is important.
After all not all industries are rocket science.
And yes some schools only teach it at the MS level, but several teach it at the BS level.
Someone said that teachers don't know enough about what they are teaching, and it's true. It's hard to find people who want to teach after being in an industry for many years.
Some industries do move fast, and people need to keep there skills up. But other industries don't move so fast, and learning on the job over the years is important.
After all not all industries are rocket science.
CheckerHater
Mechanical
I wouldn't necessarily use grim term as "unemployment preparation" and see it more in terms of "flexibility"
[ul]
[li]Did you get your degree by memorizing things, or you actually understand what you are doing?[/li]
[li]Do you have your problem-solving skills ready? Good engineers do.[/li]
[li]Are you able and willing to learn, form taking small CAD classes to going back to school?[/li]
[li]Are you open-minded, ready to accept that things may be done completely different way?[/li]
[li]Are you still curious, as in asking "how does it work?", "can I do that?". "I think I could do it better"?[/li]
[/ul]
You must keep your skill set and attitude flexible and you may be able not only find your next job faster, but possibly avoid unemployment altogether.
Just ¢2
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
[ul]
[li]Did you get your degree by memorizing things, or you actually understand what you are doing?[/li]
[li]Do you have your problem-solving skills ready? Good engineers do.[/li]
[li]Are you able and willing to learn, form taking small CAD classes to going back to school?[/li]
[li]Are you open-minded, ready to accept that things may be done completely different way?[/li]
[li]Are you still curious, as in asking "how does it work?", "can I do that?". "I think I could do it better"?[/li]
[/ul]
You must keep your skill set and attitude flexible and you may be able not only find your next job faster, but possibly avoid unemployment altogether.
Just ¢2
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
ornerynorsk
Industrial
IRstuff said:
Absolutely spot on. This holds true in any skilled profession, and the more intelligent bosses and managers hopefully realize the value that they are getting when it comes time for not only lay-offs, but for advancements, as well.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
"Employment of civil engineers is projected to grow 20 percent from 2012 to 2022, faster than the average for all occupations. As infrastructure continues to age, civil engineers will be needed to manage projects to rebuild bridges, repair roads, and upgrade levees and dams."
I can't think of a more "general X" engineering degree than civil engineering.
Also, I see a lot of room for replacement of senior engineers as they age. Even if they stick around for a few more years, they will need to leave or dial back eventually, leaving a lot of opportunity for young engineers under 40 and especially under 30.
"Employment of civil engineers is projected to grow 20 percent from 2012 to 2022, faster than the average for all occupations. As infrastructure continues to age, civil engineers will be needed to manage projects to rebuild bridges, repair roads, and upgrade levees and dams."
I can't think of a more "general X" engineering degree than civil engineering.
Also, I see a lot of room for replacement of senior engineers as they age. Even if they stick around for a few more years, they will need to leave or dial back eventually, leaving a lot of opportunity for young engineers under 40 and especially under 30.
moltenmetal
Chemical
If the young engineers don't get work when they graduate, within a couple years of non eng work the industry will consider them to be non engineers. They won't be available to the labour pool as replacements for the aging ones when they finally retire. The industry screams shortage whenever it can't find the people in their niche with 10 yrs experience that they failed to hire as fresh grads ten yrs ago. So it has been for at least two decades, and it has been getting steadily worse.
A growth rate of 20% in 8 years is barely above the demographic growth rate in the U.S. If it's above the expected growth rate for all occupations, that is because so many of them are in massive decline.
The reality of the situation is, we've been generating more engineers in the U.S. And Canada than the market can use as engineers by a large margin, and in Canada the steady state is 30% of eng grads working as engineers- a lower match rate than any other profession. Not all of the ones who leave the profession or never enter it are CEOs or patent lawyers. On average, they earn 20% less than the ones working as engineers.
If engineering is what you love, and live, then get into a good school preferably with co op and strive to be in the top third or higher in your class. You will be fine. If you're doing well, you'll encourage others to follow the same path, decades later- in ignorance of or perhaps even in spite of the stats- that is what I see engineers do time and again.
If you're vaguely good in math and science and don't know what to pursue in university, my advice is to stay clear of engineering if you think it's in short supply- it absolutely is not. Then again, staying clear of general science would also be good advice. The STEM crisis is a myth, but that doesn't mean all hope is lost. It just means you cannot count on an education automatically guaranteeing the employment it purportedly prepares you for, despite the hype. In Canada, anything related to medicine still has the best match rates between education and employment- upwards of 80-90%. Every other regulated profession puts more of its grads to work in their chosen fields than engineering does. Even teaching, which is oversupplied to miserable levels, manages to employ a fraction of its graduate candidates twice as high as engineering does here- and at a pay level similar to what engineers earn once vacation is accounted for.
A growth rate of 20% in 8 years is barely above the demographic growth rate in the U.S. If it's above the expected growth rate for all occupations, that is because so many of them are in massive decline.
The reality of the situation is, we've been generating more engineers in the U.S. And Canada than the market can use as engineers by a large margin, and in Canada the steady state is 30% of eng grads working as engineers- a lower match rate than any other profession. Not all of the ones who leave the profession or never enter it are CEOs or patent lawyers. On average, they earn 20% less than the ones working as engineers.
If engineering is what you love, and live, then get into a good school preferably with co op and strive to be in the top third or higher in your class. You will be fine. If you're doing well, you'll encourage others to follow the same path, decades later- in ignorance of or perhaps even in spite of the stats- that is what I see engineers do time and again.
If you're vaguely good in math and science and don't know what to pursue in university, my advice is to stay clear of engineering if you think it's in short supply- it absolutely is not. Then again, staying clear of general science would also be good advice. The STEM crisis is a myth, but that doesn't mean all hope is lost. It just means you cannot count on an education automatically guaranteeing the employment it purportedly prepares you for, despite the hype. In Canada, anything related to medicine still has the best match rates between education and employment- upwards of 80-90%. Every other regulated profession puts more of its grads to work in their chosen fields than engineering does. Even teaching, which is oversupplied to miserable levels, manages to employ a fraction of its graduate candidates twice as high as engineering does here- and at a pay level similar to what engineers earn once vacation is accounted for.
Then again, if you are vaguely good in math and science, there is hardly a better degree than an engineering degree to use as your platform to enter most segments of the job market, even if not engineering. Civil engineering is a particularly good (or potentially good) exposure to studies that can be useful in non-engineering careers.
For chemical engineers, maybe the outlook is not so good:
"Employment of chemical engineers is projected to grow 4 percent from 2012 to 2022, slower than the average for all occupations. Demand for chemical engineers’ services depends largely on demand for the products of various manufacturing industries."
So, if not engineering,than what? I suppose nothing in life is guaranteed, is it?
For chemical engineers, maybe the outlook is not so good:
"Employment of chemical engineers is projected to grow 4 percent from 2012 to 2022, slower than the average for all occupations. Demand for chemical engineers’ services depends largely on demand for the products of various manufacturing industries."
So, if not engineering,than what? I suppose nothing in life is guaranteed, is it?
well one thing you can say about having an engineering degree is, let alone a professional license, you are a knowledgeable individual and you are hopefully but not necessarily highly "learnable/adaptable" so you might be transferable to another application if you fall into an opportunity. And there are certainly more applications in life that are more profitable than engineering unfortunately. It sucks to have a professional license that does not lend itself into a equally profitable life as do other licensed professions.
Plenty of factors involved. Personality, salesperson ability and others I'm sure I'm not aware of yet, or maybe I'm not willing to tell you about yet. I certainly never thought about being a salesperson when I was going to school but apparently that is a important part of life.
Another aspect is, I have to feed my family. I don't have that privilege myself but it obviously exists if you do. Got to watch out for people that do and I can't blame them. Just not there with them. Best to know the possibility though. Bit me in the ass before. Watch who you joke with. or better yet don't joke at all.
Plenty of factors involved. Personality, salesperson ability and others I'm sure I'm not aware of yet, or maybe I'm not willing to tell you about yet. I certainly never thought about being a salesperson when I was going to school but apparently that is a important part of life.
Another aspect is, I have to feed my family. I don't have that privilege myself but it obviously exists if you do. Got to watch out for people that do and I can't blame them. Just not there with them. Best to know the possibility though. Bit me in the ass before. Watch who you joke with. or better yet don't joke at all.
moltenmetal
Chemical
If you haven't read this article yet, you must- especially if you believe that there is any current or pending shortage of any kind of STEM occupation, especially engineering.
Ha!
"Clearly, powerful forces must be at work to perpetuate the cycle. One is obvious: the bottom line. Companies would rather not pay STEM professionals high salaries with lavish benefits, offer them training on the job, or guarantee them decades of stable employment. So having an oversupply of workers, whether domestically educated or imported, is to their benefit. "
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faq731-376
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"Clearly, powerful forces must be at work to perpetuate the cycle. One is obvious: the bottom line. Companies would rather not pay STEM professionals high salaries with lavish benefits, offer them training on the job, or guarantee them decades of stable employment. So having an oversupply of workers, whether domestically educated or imported, is to their benefit. "
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faq731-376
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529
Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:
So I'm resurrecting an old thread. Whatever, I just got around to reading a bit of it.
If there's one statement that encapsulates my employment experience since 2003, it's a quote from the STEM Crisis is a Myth article.
"In engineering, for instance, your job is no longer linked to a company but to a funded project. Long-term employment with a single company has been replaced by a series of de facto temporary positions that can quickly end when a project ends or the market shifts."
That's really where engineering has gone and is going, based on my experience.
If there's one statement that encapsulates my employment experience since 2003, it's a quote from the STEM Crisis is a Myth article.
"In engineering, for instance, your job is no longer linked to a company but to a funded project. Long-term employment with a single company has been replaced by a series of de facto temporary positions that can quickly end when a project ends or the market shifts."
That's really where engineering has gone and is going, based on my experience.
I don't see that as a major change for aerospace and defense related, since we've always been tied to charge numbers that come from specific contracts, so there would always be a massive scramble at the end of one contract to find a berth on another contract. What's drastically changed is that there are fewer other contracts to jump onto. The catchphrase now is "realization," which is the percentage of your total hours that can be charged to contract work. If you have low realization, then you could be looking for another company altogether a month from now. The cancellation of large contracts resulted large displacements of workers, starting with the end of WWII. But the last big recession that was significantly affected by defense and aerospace was probably around the end of the Vietnam war. PhD's driving taxis and so forth. Since the early 80s, specific parts of the defense industry has become so tiny a fraction of the overall industry that even if every EE working at a large defense contract got laid off, the overall electronics industry could probably absorb the influx relatively quickly. If you are a CS major right now, it's a seller's market, since there are so many companies hungry for talent that all sorts of perks are on the negotiating table.
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No I don't see that at all. Yes I do work on specific projects, but I also have reviews of existing things to do. And in fact there are requirements for reviews every few years, and to update documentation.
Maybe it is that way for some engineers, but not all of us.
Yes I can see PhD's driving taxis, as I have seen engineers that just don't get it, or pick it up. The text book is not always correct. And to that, the text books in my field are written by professors who have never done the work. The few books written by working engineers, sadly don't make any money.
The sad truth is marketing is where the money is. Everyone remembers Steve Jobs, but what of the technical guy?
Maybe it is that way for some engineers, but not all of us.
Yes I can see PhD's driving taxis, as I have seen engineers that just don't get it, or pick it up. The text book is not always correct. And to that, the text books in my field are written by professors who have never done the work. The few books written by working engineers, sadly don't make any money.
The sad truth is marketing is where the money is. Everyone remembers Steve Jobs, but what of the technical guy?
I do believe that there needs to be a renewed focus on STEM. Too much public money goes into what is really daycare for young adults. College should be primarily for STEM. If you aren't college material then money should be allocated for more trade schools, not communications degrees etc etc etc.
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