Storage Question 1

[Joemaxfp]

I'm try to learn a couple of things on storage. We are looking at warehouse that will have upto 16' storage of doors and windows which I am thinking it falls under class III. With that being said I flip to table 16.2.1.3.2 and with a class III nonencapsulated with 8' aisles I can provide no inrack and use figure 16.2.1.3.2(c) and use the density reduction rule. Is this correct? Looks like I can knock off 40% of the density. New at this so please be kind. Thanks

 

[UFT12]

35%, not 40.

 

[Joemaxfp]

you're right sorry about that.

 

[Joemaxfp]

So using the table it looks like I start with 0.37 over 2000 and reduce to .24 over 2000. Am I looking at this correctly? I just to make sure since it will change sprinkler head spacing

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Be careful with the doors because in our plastic world styrofoam insulation is more common than some might think.

 

[UFT12]

It is important to make the right classification for your commodity, ideally have it confirmed by AHJ or insurer in writing before start of design. Usually, a thorough evaluation of all possible commodities is made before starting the design. Are you sure the warehouse is going to house only doors and windows? The criteria you suggested above may be appropriate now but not in the future. The best thing to do is to have the owner confirming the commodities in writing before moving on.

 

[LCREP]

Be very careful on the commodity classification.....a few things to consider.

1. How high is the ceiling? If they have a 25’ roof height you know someone is going want to maximize the full storage height!
2. Are you sure on the aisle width?
3. The following is from the 2013 Ed of 13

Note section 5.6.1.2.3 below 10 pallet loads is NOT a lot in a 40K area.....proceed with caution.

From an insurance AHJ point of view inadequate sprinkler design was the number 1 problem we found. A lot of warehouses received no credit for the sprinkler system because it was inadequate for the occupancy.

5.6.1.2.2 Unless the requirements of 5.6.1.2.3 or 5.6.1.2.4 are met, mixed commodity storage shall be protected by the requirements for the highest classified commodity and storage arrangement.
5.6.1.2.3 The protection requirements for the lower commodity class shall be permitted to be utilized where all of the following are met:
(1) Up to 10 pallet loads of a higher hazard commodity, as described in 5.6.3 and 5.6.4, shall be permitted to be present in an area not exceeding 40,000 ft2 (3716 m2).
(2) The higher hazard commodity shall be randomly dispersed with no adjacent loads in any direction (including diagonally).
(3) Where the ceiling protector is based on ClassI or Class II commodities, the allowable number of pallet loads for Class IV or Group A plastics shall be reduced to five.

 

[Joemaxfp]

the top of deck will be 18' high and slope to 17' and the building is 25000 sq ft. Right now they will be storing all wood doors and cabinets. And I will also confirm the aisle width

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

This is exactly what you want to do:

The best thing to do is to have the owner confirming the commodities in writing before moving on.

This is not an optional thing it is, and has been, a stipulated requirement for some time now.

4.3* Owner’s Certificate
The owner(s) of a building or structure where the fire sprinkler system is going to be installed or their authorized agent shall provide the sprinkler system installer with the following information prior to the layout and detailing of the fire sprinkler system [see Figure A.23.1(b)]:
(1) Intended use of the building including the materials within the building and the maximum height of any storage

The owners certificate is not an optional thing:

The intent of Section 4.3 is to provide the owner’s certificate for all new systems and where there is a change of occupancy and/or building use. [See Figure A.23.1(b).]

Two of the questions on the example Owners Certificate from NFPA #13 are:

Will there be any storage of products over 12 ft (3.6 m) in height? ❏ Yes ❏ No
If the answer is “yes,” describe product, intended storage arrangement, and height.

Will there be any storage of plastic, rubber, or similar products over 5 ft (1.5 m) high except as described above?
❏ Yes ❏ No
If the answer is “yes,” describe product, intended storage arrangement, and height.

That isn't extra work for you that is your get our of jail free card.

What happens if you design for a Class III Commodity only to find out later the simple doors use Styrofoam insulation and now you are looking at a real mess from a design standpoint. Or maybe the doors are stacked on wood pallets which the owner wants to pile in corner?

The Owners Certificate is the perfect vehicle to transfer the responsibility from the design to the owner which is exactly where it should be. We designers already have enough responsibility so why would we want some more that shouldn't be ours in the first place?

It was 8 years ago we had a discussion about a warehouse where we had empty aluminum cans to 24' high on wood pallets. Doesn't sound bad but it was a Class A exposed plastic because of the slip sheets. These aluminum cans were bad news because of the slip sheets and every aluminum can warehouse (Ball Metal, I have done a good number of these) I've seen has the slip sheets.

Scott had done an investigation on a fire in Grand Prairie, Texas that totally destroyed a 400,000 square foot warehouse housing aluminum cans.

Owners Certificate.... it is for your protection so use it!

 

[LCREP]

Totally agree with SprinklerDesign it is your CYA.....

Confirm they are using wood pallets no plans for plastic pallets.

How high and where will wood idle pallets be stored? Anything over 6’ high, 4 stacks together requires a higher density as per 13.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I would like to add on some projects I wouldn't hesitate getting a licensed FPE involved not to design the system but to classify the commodity.

And on some projects don't tell me you can't afford to because the reality is you can not afford not to. I just love get out of jail free cards and this is the perfect example of a get out of free card.

This is not to detract from the capability of any designer to properly design the system, many of us can do a better job at laying out a system compared to most PE's, but one thing most of haven't had is the training especially when it comes to some plastics or chemicals.

You can't afford not to do this. I recently completed a complex having 450,000 sq ft of warehouse space that went for $700,000 (a large project for me) and someone want to tell me why I can't afford one or two thousand dollars to make sure the design criteria is correct? 450,000 sq ft gets the owner spending four, five, six, seven or even eight HUNDRED MILLION on a total project and yet the sprinkler contractor feels compelled to hold on to a lousy thousand bucks when the thousand bucks is the cheapest insurance he can find?

 

[chicopee]

Get a PE whose credentials is in fire protection. Major insurance companies which specialize in fire protection have those guys on board.