Storage Question 2

[bob smith]

I have a buddy of mine looking at a decent size warehouse. Its 41' to the deck and they are looking to store Uhaul Uboxes. Which are wood boxes for people to store their stuff in and they look like little sheds. They will probably be stored at 28' high in this open warehouse. If I look at the commodity list boxes are labeled under a class 2 solid walls. I am thinking ESFR protection of solid piles storage because they just stack these things on top of each other. Am I missing anything?

 

[cdafd]

OH YEHHHH

How many square feet is the building????" About how many of those square feet will be used for storage.

BEST advice,, get some info together, go set down with the city,,,BEFORE you sign lease papers or buy the building!!!!!!!

Depending on what city/ county the building is in,

If they have an adopted fire code.

What they are looking at is called high piled stock.

ESFR sprinklers are not magic fire sprinklers,, they have to be designed and installed for the HAZARD.

PLUS the building itself has to have certain features, incorporated into it..

 

[bob smith]

It will be a 35k building all warehouse and a little area for the office. They are on NFPA 13 2013.

 

[cdafd]

Which state is this in???

City too, if you want to say



Houston you have a problem.

If the city in which the building is located has an adopted fire code and knows how to use it.

Have a set down with them ,,, BEFORE signing lease papers/ purchase papers.

There are other elements involved beside the sprinkler system


But, if you go in the building ,, my suggestion is have a fire protection engineer analysis the fire sprinkler system ,,, for what you want to store, storage height, and method of storage, to hit the main parts.

Sprinklered warehouses do burn to the ground

 

[TravisMack]

These "pod" storage facilities often quite detailed. This needs to be reviewed closely with the local FD.

Travis Mack, SET, CWBSP, RME-G, CFPS
MFP Design, a Ferguson Enterprise

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[LCREP]

Bob,

Speaking from a firefighter and insurance loss prevention engineer get folks involved before signing anything. From a firefighter point of view when the boxes start to tip over because the base box is on fire…wow big hazard to the firefighters. From a sprinkler protection point of view, given they can put anything in the boxes ie plastic furniture, definitely not class 2 commodity yea I know what NFPA says. All it takes is a cover not tight and the fire will get into the box. From an insurance point of view get the property insurance carrier engineering team involved. I used to do they types of reviews all the time for clients.

 

[bob smith]

So the building is located in Northern Kentucky and it is just storage of the "pods" nothing in them. The location of the building is in an area where they "dont know how to use it", so sitting down with them they would say whatever NFPA states.

But considering just the boxes being stored having an ESFR system for high piled storage takes care of class I-IV. Is this where you would start?

 

[cdafd]

Bob Bob Bob,,,,

So an empty wood box,,,, almost as much fun as Pallets burning..

NO ESFR’s are not magic fire sprinklers. Just because you have them, they do not protect everything!!!!

Fully sprinkled ESFR warehouses burn all the way to the ground.

Someone that knows what they are doing, needs to analyze the existing system.!!!

It may not be designed for 28 feet storage, but maybe 21 feet??? Or less.
So if they come back and say 21 feet,,, could you live with that,,,,,, Or pay the thousands to beef up the system,,, to store to 28 feet.???


So a little strange to store completely empty boxes in a building???

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

If the pods are empty it sort of looks like Class IV solid pile which would take me to NFPA #13 TABLE 23.3.1 "ESFR Protection of Palletized and Solid-Piled Storage of Class I Through Class IV Commodities". 2019 Edition.

We would need K22.4 pendent ESFR heads operating at 40 psi. 141.7 gpm discharge. You are going to be needing a 1,500 gpm fire pump.

But that is a guess and having been designing fire sprinkler systems for nearly 50 years now, I am not a young man anymore, I learned a long time ago to throw that monkey at someone else anytime I had any doubt.

I would go to an FPE I know and get his input because if I can get it in writing with his signature, or better yet seal, it's my get out of jail free card.

If it cost $1,000 for an hours work that cheap. I really doubt the existing system, if there is an existing system, is designed as ESFR which means you can scrap the existing system and start out all new. The project is going to cost at least six figures so we are not playing around with petty change here.

I would propose an ESFR system us9ing the K22 heads but I would clearly state in my proposal that we are operating under the assumption the local authority having jurisdiction would accept it. If you had a letter from an FPE I couldn't imagine where a local fire official would turn it down and if the FPE said something else you could share that with the local authority which would get you out of trouble.

The good part about operating like this is you don't have to put out any money to an FPE until you have a signed contract and with your proposal the worst thing that would happen is you then would be out your design time and the cost of an FEP's input.

The system would probably be an ESFR using K22 heads but I would not stake my reputation on it. I design fire sprinkler systems, and I feel I am pretty good at it, but whenever I have a question I learned a long time ago to bring in an FPE and let him take the risk. I'd throw that monkey at someone like Scott. Oh yeah I would. Even if he charged $3,000 for his two hours of input on a $200,000 project that's cheap.

 

[LCREP]

Bob,

Is this an existing building with a sprinkler system, if so what is the current sprinkler design? This is the place to start what do you have, is it adequate for the planned storage configuration? No use picking some design not knowing what the existing system can provide, available water supply, etc. Available water supply is a big one if you do not have a good system sprinkler upgrades get expensive fast ie fire pump, bigger mains etc etc. I can not tell you how many companies pasted on a building because of poor public water supply.

 

[TravisMack]

These things are for storage of household goods. You have a lot of foam mattress and other furniture in there. This may fall under cartoned, expanded plastics. ESFR is not compatible with building and roof height for that based on Table 23.3.1 ESFR Sprinkler Ceiling-Only Options for Solid Pile; Palletized; and Single-, Double-, and Multiple-Row Rack Storage. So you are going to need to look at some other configurations. If I'm reading it correctly, CMSA nor CMDA are not an option either.

This will need a detailed analysis of the project to determine what is best and how the configurations may need to change. It appears a ceiling may be needed at 35' and storage limited to 25'. But again, that is based on a lot of assumptions. You need to get a competent professional involved to walk through this with you.

Travis Mack, SET, CWBSP, RME-G, CFPS
MFP Design, a Ferguson Enterprise

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Get a signed owners certificate where the owner, or his representative, will declare what the storage is and how high it will be stored.

I do not do any storage buildings unless I have an owners certificate to cover me. Look at it this way; why should you determine what will be stored in the boxes.... have the owner tell you.

 

[aaron johnson llc]

I would agree with TravisMack. ESFR is not an option as 40' ceiling height is the max per table 23.3.1. Definitely, have a third party, registered design professional get involved.