Stray Voltage question

[pennsy]

Has anyone heard about new legislation, ie new state laws regulating Stray voltage ?
I received from another site a letter about Wisconson writing new laws governing stray voltage, especially on dairy farms.
I know this can be a problem but do we really need more government regulation, obsticles and other stumbleing blocks put in the way of industry ?
Why is Wisconson and Minnesota, these two states primarily have such a problem with stray voltage. ?
Not to put all the blame anywhere in particular but the Utility is not always to blame. Having spent a significant amount of time doing work on farms I can certainly attest to the fact that the farm wiring itself is certainly suspect to the production of stray voltage.
Here in Ohio, we have Ohio Edison who is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but is certainly helpful in solving problems such as stray voltage on our local farms. They have even gone so far to install "Neutral blockers" one of their names for a primary neutral isolator to help eleviate the problem.
just curious.
WOC

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Visit

http://www.niagaramohawk.com/house/pwrqual/def.html

for: Stray voltage history, problems causing to cows, etc.

http://www.afns.ualberta.ca/Hosted/Deag_Old/deag5v1.htm

http://www.afns.ualberta.ca/Hosted/DRTC/Articles/Stray_...

for: Dairy management

http://www.bae.umn.edu/extens/ennotes/enaug03/strayvolt...

for: Stray voltage info

http://www.bae.umn.edu/extens/ennotes/enfall96/strayvol...

for: Stray voltage order

http://www.egr.msu.edu/age/MAEC/bibliography.htm

for: Bibliography
etc. for more info

 

[busbar]

There is a website apparently set up by a journalist turned researcher:

http://strayvoltage.org

It looks like maybe the biggest overall problem has been the pervasive application of multigrounded neutrals in utility medium-voltage distribution systems.

 

[stevenal]

OC Seevers disagrees.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=sr_8_1/103-7825075-2062253?v=glance&n=507846

 

[jghrist]

I'm glad you brought that up stevenal. I would highly recommend reading anything O.C. publishes. An example from the referenced book:

"Having found its way from the substation in town to this distant rural point, this voltage had turned and started for home. Becoming confused, it strayed down to the barn and went into the milking parlor to ask for directions. Finding Elsie, it made its presence known in the only way it knew how. It tickled her tit."

 

[nostrayvoltage]

Not intending to "flame" anyone, but while Ohio Edison may try to help some farms, I have had contact with several situations involving Ohio Edison and very honestly the "skills" level of those I have observed is very minimal when it comes to dealing with stray voltage on farms. Pretty easy to install a blocker, but that does not always solve the farmers problem.

 

[jbartos]

Comment on the previous posting: When it comes to the Utility, there are many people working with very narrow scopes of their positions. Sometimes, the employee’s specialization is so narrow that the employee does not even fulfill a scope of the position. It is better to contact the Utility upper executives, e.g. Vice - President, or similar to get a right answer or to have something done about it.

 

[nostrayvoltage]

By the way, in Wisconsin the installation of a "blocker" is not an acceptable remedy for stray voltage. It can only be used in Wisconsin as a temporary(90days?) solution until other corrective actions can be made.

 

[twosockets]

I have always found it curious that milk cows know to complain about stray voltage when the price of milk is low. Amazing!

One of the many problems I have with the whole stray voltage issue is the automatic assumption that the electric utility is responsible, even when the source of the problem is poor wiring on the dairy farm! Stray voltage needs to be handled exactly the same way that frivolous lawsuits should be handled: if the utility is responsible, they should voluntarily pay for damages caused, and if they are not, they should not pay anything at all!

 

[jbartos]

Comment on the previous posting: There would then be a bigger need for independent electrical consultants and engineers who seem to be currently dwindling.

 

[twosockets]

Stray voltage may not yet be in the same league with PCBs or cold fusion, but it is close. Personally, I would prefer that independent electrical consultants and engineers engage in honest and useful work.

 

[nostrayvoltage]

twosockets & jbartos

I am not sure I understand your comments, BUT

Stray voltage on diary farms is in fact a legitimate engineering concern. Unfortunately there a many "quacks" trying to make a quick $ from the often emotional responses to this phenomona. What is really unfortunate are the many inappropriate response made by electric companies.

I am a legitimate engineering consultant with specific stray voltage experience and it is my view that stray voltage represents not only a technical challenge but a huge challenge in interpersonal relationsips to overcome myths and misinformation.

 

[twosockets]

nostrayvoltage,

If you are a standup type guy, I offer my apologies. Unfortunately, from my experience, most of the people making claims against utilties in the stray voltage area make used car salesmen look like saints.

If you could kindly explain how dairy cows know when to complain about the effects of stray voltage based on the price of milk, I would really be interested. There seems to be a strong statistical correlation.

Also, why is the utility automatically required to prove that they are not the cause of stray voltage? This might be acceptable if the consumer was required to reimburse the utility for investigatory efforts if the cause of stray voltage is found to be in the consumers's wiring. I know of no such conditions. In the absence of such conditions, I must conclude that the basis of many of the claims of stray voltage lodged against utilities to be exactly what they are: fraud.

 

[jbartos]

Question to nostrayvoltage (Electrical) Dec 16, 2003 marked ///\\twosockets & jbartos
I am not sure I understand your comments, BUT
///Please, what in particular do you not understand in my posting? Would you be more specific?\\Stray voltage on diary farms is in fact a legitimate engineering concern.
///True, never denied.\\ Unfortunately there a many "quacks" trying to make a quick $ from the often emotional responses to this phenomona. What is really unfortunate are the many inappropriate response made by electric companies.
///It appears that there are not that many electrical equations, calculations, data inputs, etc. posted and available. I see that your posting are more on a popular engineering side rather than on an analytic side.\\I am a legitimate engineering consultant with specific stray voltage experience and it is my view that stray voltage represents not only a technical challenge but a huge challenge in interpersonal relationsips to overcome myths and misinformation.
///Good to know. Please, what are your specific accomplishments in the stray voltage area?\\\

 

[nostrayvoltage]

to jbartos
Oh my, we MUST be analytical with equations to be engineers???

Well I don't disagree that often we need to quantify what we are doing, but sometimes we just need to know what we are doing....

For example:

The very first farm I investigated indeed had measurable stray voltage, cow contact voltage, in the milking parlor. I eliminated the voltage simply by electrically connecting all the exposed metal components together(drains, grated stairway, biscuit, butt plates, gate poles, etc).

I really didn't need to use any equations to correct this situation. I view this as applying good sound engineering principles and knowledge.

to twosockets
I fully agree there are many out there just looking to sue someone for a fast $. Again the challenge is not only technical but also interpersonal.

By the way it has been scientifically demonstrated that cows in fact exhibit avoidance behavior in response to stray voltage....

Just for the record my last client was an electric company.The farm I evaluated for them had stray voltage related to an improperly installed submersible water pump, not the utility's fault. Never said I was anti-utility...

I think I am a standup guy.....

 

[pennsy]

Nostrayvoltage
You mention that you have had much experience with farms and then turn around and ask how do the cows complain about stray voltage.
they dont, their milk production drops off, then their weight goes down because they wont eat and if there are a lot of cows involved this can add up to alot of money for the farmer.
Second, you are right, utilities are not always to blame and alot of the times the farm should be shut down because very dangerous farm wiring. The problem with farms is the wiring is hardly ever up to the minimum standard or the NEC, because the farmer is so fiercely independant they refuse to have it checked or done "Right" until there is a huge problem that they can not over come then they call the utility and they get the blame.
But stray voltage is a REAL problem.
I have worked with OE for/with 10 plus years now(NOT AN EMPLOYEE OF O.E.) BUT I have never found lack of skills to be the case, and to paint them with such a broad brush is totally unfair, to all the dedicated emmployees who do their job with the utmost of confidence and skill. Until this stupid De-regulation, they 'the Linemen especially' were always extremely helpful, Knowledgeable, with high skill levels and at times even helped up with putting up risers using their buckets.
When I have had stray voltage problems I have gone down to their Engineering Department and they would pull prints, books and virtually bend over backwards to help. Alot of the times because of the multi-point grounding they use the primary neutral will cause a problem and by isolation, ie Neutral Blocker, this will help the farmer and the engineer/electrician isolate the problem.
My sole purpose of the statment/question was to solicit opinions on whether this needs to be a problem for the government to solve solely by crating another bloated beauracacy.
I apologize for offending anyone but this is my opinion and having worked with a company that I consider with great credentials I cannot let them be attacked without response.
Sincerely
Wm.O. Colt III

 

[nostrayvoltage]

Please review the above posts, I never "ask how do the cows complain about stray voltage"

I don't won't this thread to become a series of personal attacks.

I agree Ohio Edison has many good people.

Wisconsin already has significant legislation regarding stray voltage. Repeating one point from above this legislation includes prohibiting the use of blockers as a solution to stray voltage. There is also a significatant farm rewiring program underway in Wisc. You can do an internet search to find out more info. but here is a start:

http://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/farm/rewiring.asp

I am not aware of pending legislation in Ohio, but Wisconsin should be a lesson in the importance taking seriously complaints that may or may not be legitimate.

 

[pennsy]

Nostrayvoltage:

My sincere apologies, I read the whole section and saw red, when someone said 'how do cow complain' and then melded your comment about OE.
YOU are right I have not either heard of any legislation in Ohio pertaining to 'Stray voltage', and that is my whole point. When the government gets involved as they did with De-regulation It simply complicates the whole process.
Stray voltage is a definite problem, especially in my area of Ohio. As someone pointed out the utility usually takes the hit and is blamed without first exploring all possibilities of what/where the problem really is. This is NOT to relieve the Utility of any responsibility but a bad inaccurate evaluation is as good as NO evaluation at all and never solves the problem.
The solution ? is to try to get all parties concerned to work together to find a equitable solution for all involved.
WmColt

 

[jre]

In New Zealand, "the land of milk and plenty"our policy in dairy sheds is EARTHING and BONDING, the more you can earth and bond together the better, including reinforcing steel in concrete work. If a Utility neutral connection should then become faulty,the entire shed mass is at the same potential. We run an MEN ( multiple earthed neatral) system which may not be your case.