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structual plans vs steel placing plans 1
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I'm sticking to inspecting off the record set/documents, not the shops. Shops are not generated by the EOR, they are not sealed by anyone and may not give you the whole picture. If you need extra plate field welded to members, headed studs, anything that may involve more than one trade... These will not necessarily show up on the shops.
Engineers generally have months to prepare structural plans, shops are drawn in weeks and the review is done in days. Some structural steel sets can have hundreds of sheets. We catch whatever we can, but it is unrealistic to think that 100% of items will be caught during this review.
A matter of semantics: We never "approve" shop drawings. Architects can approve wall finishes and flooring if they want to, we "review" structural shop drawings. Any engineer who "approves" shops is nuts and their insurance company is going to have kittens.
Engineers generally have months to prepare structural plans, shops are drawn in weeks and the review is done in days. Some structural steel sets can have hundreds of sheets. We catch whatever we can, but it is unrealistic to think that 100% of items will be caught during this review.
A matter of semantics: We never "approve" shop drawings. Architects can approve wall finishes and flooring if they want to, we "review" structural shop drawings. Any engineer who "approves" shops is nuts and their insurance company is going to have kittens.
hawkaz - I know what you mean about "approve" but per AISC (see my post aboe) they do say "approve" in that you are agreeing, as the EOR, that the shop drawings represent a correct interpretation of your design.
It doesn't suggest that you have checked every dimension and fit-up condition. The Fabricator/contractor is still responsible for doing what the EOR drawings require no matter what the "approval" or "reviewed" reponse is given.
And no matter what you put on your stamp, as EOR, you are responsible for the design as you detailed it
AND
you are responsible for the adequacy of the connections even if the fabricator designs them.
Per the Hyatt Regency court decision, the EOR can delegate tasks but the EOR cannot delegate final responsibility.
It doesn't suggest that you have checked every dimension and fit-up condition. The Fabricator/contractor is still responsible for doing what the EOR drawings require no matter what the "approval" or "reviewed" reponse is given.
And no matter what you put on your stamp, as EOR, you are responsible for the design as you detailed it
AND
you are responsible for the adequacy of the connections even if the fabricator designs them.
Per the Hyatt Regency court decision, the EOR can delegate tasks but the EOR cannot delegate final responsibility.
JAE,
I'm west coast- We design all of the connections ourselves. I'm jealous of east coasters- they do half the work, but get the same fees as us
I agree that the contractor/fabricator is still responsible as you noted above- That is the point of this issue. How is the inspector going to identify items that are in conflict between the shops and plans if he is only looking at the shop drawings during the inspection process?
I'm west coast- We design all of the connections ourselves. I'm jealous of east coasters- they do half the work, but get the same fees as us
I agree that the contractor/fabricator is still responsible as you noted above- That is the point of this issue. How is the inspector going to identify items that are in conflict between the shops and plans if he is only looking at the shop drawings during the inspection process?
hawkaz,
I agree with your point about checking to the structural plans rather than the shop drawings though this doesnt help if there are no connections shown.
In the end, if something does not match the structural drawings I would take a note of it and take it back to the office to check if it was previously agreed or adequate. If I really need to issue a report on site then I will state that it does not match the drawings and will be investigated.
I try to make note of any agreed changes that may have been made to the design from RFIs e.t.c. so I can be prepared for them on site.
A difficult one for which the best solution will be the one which you find works for you.
I agree with your point about checking to the structural plans rather than the shop drawings though this doesnt help if there are no connections shown.
In the end, if something does not match the structural drawings I would take a note of it and take it back to the office to check if it was previously agreed or adequate. If I really need to issue a report on site then I will state that it does not match the drawings and will be investigated.
I try to make note of any agreed changes that may have been made to the design from RFIs e.t.c. so I can be prepared for them on site.
A difficult one for which the best solution will be the one which you find works for you.
Hawkaz- I take offense, I've never delegated the connections. Why should someone else have the fun, and those are MY connections! But having been a specialty engineer a few times on connection design, it is done in Florida some, I don't know the percentage. It can be a pain if the EOR does not give you all of the info you need, and for simple shear connections I think it is lazy- just provide a connection schedule and detail the few unique ones.
Great thread though.
End of the day, its your project in the minds of a lay person (mediator, judge,jury). If we don't all 100% agree on the subject, and its not clear to us, imagine them!!
Great thread though.
End of the day, its your project in the minds of a lay person (mediator, judge,jury). If we don't all 100% agree on the subject, and its not clear to us, imagine them!!
msquared48
Structural
RFI > Structural Plans > Shop Drawings. End of story.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
cvg,
I think there should be a square root in there somewhere.
a2mfk,
I find it takes just as much of your time to have someone else check the connections anyhow. As the building designer you can get a good feel for where the critical connections are and how varied the results are so you can determine what to design and how many types to design.
I think designing ten different connections where one will do is false economy anyway. You either pay for design and checking time or for labour in the shop.
Anyway, time to log off. Have a merry christmas everyone.
I think there should be a square root in there somewhere.
a2mfk,
I find it takes just as much of your time to have someone else check the connections anyhow. As the building designer you can get a good feel for where the critical connections are and how varied the results are so you can determine what to design and how many types to design.
I think designing ten different connections where one will do is false economy anyway. You either pay for design and checking time or for labour in the shop.
Anyway, time to log off. Have a merry christmas everyone.
The question of delegating connection design has come up before. My experience is that each shop has it's own preference for shear connections. You could go through and design all of the connections as end plates, or knife plates and the fabricator will inevitably come back and ask if they can use double angles. At that point you will become the unreasonable engineer for not allowing a change on simple connections, OR you'll end up designing the double angles (designing the connections twice), or you'll ask the fabricator to submit calcs and end up checking them. In my mind, the best solution is provide reactions and let the fabricator choose whatever type of connection he wants.
The above is for simple shear connections and braced frame connections. We document all unique connections. The reason we do this for braced frame connections is similar to the shear connections - there are multiple ways to achieve the connection, why not let the shop do what is easiest and most economical for them.
The above is for simple shear connections and braced frame connections. We document all unique connections. The reason we do this for braced frame connections is similar to the shear connections - there are multiple ways to achieve the connection, why not let the shop do what is easiest and most economical for them.
EIT- depends on the area of the country I guess, because many shops don't have this capability in-house and they have to hire a specialty engineer. Sometimes I am that guy and I trust me doing it (for the most part ), but if I am the EOR I don't know who this may put me in bed with if I delegate it. And like CSD said, I find it can be more work delegating it and then having to check calcs and drawings, sometimes more than once, than if I had just done a schedule and details myself.
But you are right on not knowing what a fabricator will want to do. Having worked for fabricators for a while now, we get some odd requests from time to time on connection design changes that you would have assumed were not economical. Depends on the shop's equipment, set up, labor, current work load, etc....
Another option which we have used to varying success, if its not too much work for us and we can schedule it, we will give them some welding/bolting options and leave it up to them....
), but if I am the EOR I don't know who this may put me in bed with if I delegate it. And like CSD said, I find it can be more work delegating it and then having to check calcs and drawings, sometimes more than once, than if I had just done a schedule and details myself.But you are right on not knowing what a fabricator will want to do. Having worked for fabricators for a while now, we get some odd requests from time to time on connection design changes that you would have assumed were not economical. Depends on the shop's equipment, set up, labor, current work load, etc....
Another option which we have used to varying success, if its not too much work for us and we can schedule it, we will give them some welding/bolting options and leave it up to them....
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