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Structural analysis by a PE without stamping it 3

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Buleeek

Structural
Sep 5, 2017
98
Hello everyone.

Recently, I was hired by a company to perform a structural analysis and do structural drawings for a project. I will invoice them for my services (I'm not that company employee).
My question is, am I responsible in any way for this design if:

1) My name is not on the drawings,
2) Other PE will stamp and sign the drawings (hopefully after a thorough review)

I am a PE but not licensed where the project is located. I have made it very clear that the EOR/PE responsible for this project should review it before stamping.

Thanks.


 
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I don't think it matters... if you are a prof engineer, and you did some work, I don't think you can absolve yourself of responsibility. I don't like meetings where I'm the only professional in the room; you pick up a bunch more liability.

I should have added... if someone brings a lawyer. Time to leave the meeting.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
I'm kind of questioning the ethics of that company or whatever person will stamp your design. Sounds more like they will have a huge problem if something goes wrong after that rubber-stamping exercise. How much of that is your liability probably depends onw hat agreement you have with them. but they basically stamp a design they didn't perform. and reviewing a design they didn't do would take as much effort as designing, so probably won't happen. Especially if the stamping person doesn't really know or supervise you.
 
I agree with EP here. I'm not a fan of this with drawings that somebody else brings to me and asks for an analysis and stamp...to have somebody bring me an analysis and have me stamp it is a bit ridiculous. I realize that's not the position you're in but it would still give me pause.

The flip side to this is that it's not unlike a typical relationship within a firm where a lower level PE does a design, but the boss stamps it. So long as the boss maintained supervisory control at all times, then there's no problem. So a big question: was the stamping engineer involved from the beginning and did he/she lay out parameters to work by and/or make the initial engineering decisions to give you direction? If the answer is no, then they are not the EOR and shouldn't be sealing the work.

Your issue is probably less one of liability and more one of ethics. Most states have a catch-all that if anyone is aware of unethical practices they have a duty to report. Even if you're not sued, the state board could take umbrage with what you've done and report you to your board for an ethical violation. Long shot, but one I'd be concerned with (but then I'm usually too concerned about that sort of thing, or so others tell me).
 
This sounds like it's likely illegal for the EOR as it's unlikely that person can meet the responsible charge definition.

You also will not be shielded from liability (or at least being sued) should something go wrong. I've also been of the opinion that even if your name isn't on a drawing if you had a hand in any design aspect it's likely discoverable and you'll get pulled in.

The bigger issue to me is are you breaking the law by providing engineering services? You readily admit you aren't licensed in the state the project is located. Generally, a license is required to practice engineering in a state.
 
Rabbit - to your last point, there's often ways around that. As an employee, I did lots of jobs in states where I wasn't licensed. But my boss was, and he was in responsible charge. So if the EOR sub'ed this to Buleek's firm and is maintaining responsible charge...it could be legal. I've done that on a few projects with another one man shop I know - a client of mine wanted to give me a project but I didn't have my license in that state, so I had them give it to the other guy who then hired me as a sub consultant to do the grunt work for him while he maintained oversight, etc. However if the client hired Buleek and then hired the other guy, Buleek is probably violating that state's laws.
 
I'm hired by an engineering firm to do a design and draw what is designed. Then, the company who hired me PE will review the work I've done and stamp it (if approved by him/her).

For the past several years I have been working for a company (as EIT and PE) and never stamped anything - my boss did. What is the difference ?

Thanks,
 
Buleek - that's my point, there's little difference in most cases. The contractual relationship is the important part. If the facility owner hired you and you designed it, and then they hired another PE to stamp it, it would not be the same. But if the facility owner hires PE 1 to do the design and PE 1 hires PE 2 who isn't licensed in that state but maintains control as EOR, then it's okay in most instances.
 
Thank you for the answer. It is also my understanding that if I'm not their employee (just hired as a freelancer) I'm not under their insurance
Thanks.
 
If at all, I would want to be hired as an hourly employee or some other employment that makes your design the official product of that firm. You still could get a high hourly rate (no benefits) and wouldn't have to worry. If they are not willing to do that - walk.
 
I worked for a large engineering firm for about 10 years as a contract employee; I was not permanent, and this is how it was.
[ul]
[li]In the event of a problem, the client could sue me, the company, or the company and myself, jointly.[/li]
[li]In addition, the company I worked for could sue me.[/li]
[li]I was covered by their liability insurance.[/li]
[/ul]

As an engineer, you have to be careful about providing any technical information... even if casual and to a friend, and for no money exchangedj, you could be held liable.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
dik,

Did you stamp drawings for them or just designed and someone else stamped it ?
 
I did the design and sealing. You can be liable, albeit a little less, if you are not sealing the documents.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
Not necessarily... the buck stops with the dude that seals it. He's first and foremost responsible.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
I'm no lawyer... but in a lawsuit they first sue everyone who remotely had anything to do with the project. Then they whittle it down to the parties that have money. Then to the ones that have money (or insurance) and can be held responsible for remotely anything. So even if the court decides the OP is not at fault - it is a long and costly process to get to that point. Even if you are not guilty, you may have to settle just to get it over with.

Since this is the internet and we could just be 12 year old kids on a computer.... you probably should consult a lawyer to find out what exact exposure you could have and what legal relationship (if any) you should have with them.
 
Not necessarily... the buck stops with the dude that seals it. He's first and foremost responsible.

Sure that protects you from the client, but not necessarily the PE who stamped the work and then sues you for not being forthcoming. A (virtual) paper trail showing that the engineer either did, or did not, have responsible charge protects you from the PE. If there's a trail of unanswered emails to the PE, that helps you.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
The scattergun approach to lawyer's lawsuits. If the lawyer misses someone, they can be sued for missing that party. Another 'fly in the ointment' is that you may be directed by your insurance company to some sort of equitable 'settlement' that may not be in your 'best interests'. Isn't it marvellous what engineering has turned into.

When I first started engineering, I did several 18-20 storey CMU shearwall apartment buildings... no insurance was req'd. Not anymore... times have changed, and not for the better.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 

The PE is not protected at all; just that you may be 'drawn in' to the fray. Affixing your seal means that you agree with the 'entire package', not just parts of it. For any project with a problem, you are not protected from your employer filing a suit. It's unlikely that they will, but they can. You don't have to be a registered engineer for that to happen; they have to show the court that you were negligent and skilled.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
I operate in a similar role with a partner firm. My work is mainly putting hard numbers to their drawings/designs, providing markups, or providing a record-of-review. They review the work, discuss if necessary, and then seal their own drawings. We each have our own insurance policy. I charge similar to a billable rate, not an employee hourly rate. I approach the role as follows:

1. Create a really open and communicative relationship with the other engineer.
2. Document my own analysis and submit work as I would any other client.
3a. Be clear about the conclusions. If something doesn't work, or if I don't agree with the design, I'll make sure that it is noted.
3b. If something isn't necessarily the way I'd design it, I may go the extra step to see if I can get it to work (1000 ways to skin a cat...) and notify them if so. This is where #1 really is a benefit.
4. Treat the work as if I were sealing it (ie. I never think "meh, I'm not ultimately responsible for this if it goes through..."). I think that's just poor form in engineering.
5. Work under an agreement, terms of engagement, or clearly defined scope.

The reverse relationship is tougher to iron out and work without hiccups unless you are part of the same organization. That is: If you were to guide someone else through the design, have them do the analysis, have them do the drawings, and then review the drawings for your seal...in my experience, it gets messy and is difficult to meet all party's expectations.
 
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