Structural aspirations: will this degree limit me? 5

[Kay2020]

This is a followup thread to Planning My Career at 40. (Thanks so much to those who have me some great ideas in the last thread).

I'm planning to return to school in 2 years to get a degree in civil engineering. I am most interested in structural engineering. The problem is, I've started to question whether the degree offered by the nearest college is right for me. First some history I think. When I attended this college 15 years ago, they didn't offer a degree in Civil Engineering. They did have a mechanical eng program. They also offered a BS in Construction Mgmt. In 2010 they started the "Construction Engineering" program. I'm not even sure I understand what a construction engineer is. It sounds like they took their already existing construction management program and threw in some engineering courses. In 2012 they changed the name of the program to "better reflect the content of the degree, which has been designed to satisfy the requirements for both civil engineering and construction engineering programs".

This is how they describe this program:
"This is thought to be the only institution of higher education in the U.S. to offer a combined degree in civil and construction engineering, although similar programs exist in Australia and Germany. While this degree focuses on structural and construction engineering, students will have the opportunity to take courses in all areas of civil engineering. Unlike most civil engineering programs, which include only one course in construction engineering, the program requires approximately 10 courses in this area.
This combination of civil engineering and construction engineering is forward looking. Civil engineering is about designing infrastructure, and construction engineering is all about building that infrastructure.
Designing and building go hand-in-hand, and students will be able to get involved in both engineering design and construction. Graduates will be able to work for engineering design firms, construction companies, or public agencies."

Once I've graduated, I will be able to be work on my PE or CPC (certified professional constructor) license. I'm assuming a CPC is a construction manager?



I would love some input from you structural engineers. Would you hire someone with this degree? Here is a link to the details of the program.

 

[mtu1972]

Kay - 1st off, having your husband retire early should not be a consideration. The fact that he can have health insurance with his retirement at age 52 is an incredible benefit. I was forced into an early retirement 14 years ago, but the fact that it came with retiree health insurance was our "Ace in the hole" that allowed us to finally retire somewhat early (3 jobs later) last year.

In reviewing the curriculum I have the following comments:
1) You have far less Chemistry and Physics and that is not all bad
2) You get into courses that are relevant to your chosen field in your 1st and 2nd year
3) Statics and Engineering Mechanics are the basis for all of the structural classes
and you get them in your 2nd year. Those courses were the ones that confirmed for
me that I was on the right track, and Statics came at the 3rd term of my 2nd year.
4) The Estimating and Construction Planning/Scheduling courses were not available for me
and were things that I picked up through the middle part of my career. I was not
involved with Construction Costs/Estimating until my 3rd job (16 years into my career).
5) Soils and Foundations are fundamental to a structural engineering career
6) Hydraulics, Water/Waste Water, Geology, Highway, etc. are all part of Civil Eng. that
you should be aware of.

It appears to be a well thought-out program. What you don't have is the opportunity to take any advanced structural elective's. Back then my Univ. was on a term basis - so we had less time in the basic course and then took advanced courses in steel, Reinf. Conc., etc. It may be that with the longer semester exposure you'll have it will make up for the material that was covered in my elective courses. Terms were 10 weeks while semesters are probably 16 weeks.

MTU changed to semesters some time ago and I just looked at their Civil/Structural courses and see that they have far fewer classes than were available back then. They still have 4 elective courses that can be taken over the last couple of semesters, which gives on some chance to focus on particular areas of interest.

And I would not rule out anything from the Construction side of this program. Design/Build is becoming more and more prevalent and having background in both the design and construction aspects may be a really good thing.

gjc

 

[oldestguy]

It would appear that setting up the special degree Construction engineer is a modification of typical civil engineering courses, with some added work that, in the past, we learned on the job.

This group of universities now carry that degree. I think the description at Purdue sums it up pretty well.

https://www.universities.com/edu/Bachelor_degrees_in_Construction_Engineering.html

 

[Ron]

Kay....the term "Construction Engineer" has essentially no bearing. It is not a recognized discipline of engineering for which you can get licensing in most states. Yes, licensing is available in some areas; however, that license is less portable than the more common disciplines of Civil or Civil/Structural.

Many of the engineering technology programs in various colleges and universities offer similar. Some meet the requirements for taking licensure exams, some do not. Be careful.

I am a licensed, practicing engineer with over 35 years of experience. I have the added benefit of being a part-time professor in construction management. It is not and should not be an engineering program. The program is not as technically rigorous as an engineering program and will not substitute. Each has its place, but they are mutually exclusive from an engineering and licensing standpoint. Some colleges and universities have tried to convert their construction management programs to engineering programs....with varied success. The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) sets the minimum requirements for certification of programs, and if the program does not meet ABET accreditation criteria, licensing is not likely possible.

Here is a link to ABET....

http://www.abet.org/home/

Here is a link to NCEES....

http://ncees.org/

Check out both sites. If you want to be a structural engineer, go through an appropriate program that will prepare you for the practice of structural engineering and, if required in your state, the S.E. Exam. (even if not required, I would suggest you pursue it for future requirements....they're coming!)

 

[brandonbw]

My business partner went to school, UC San Diego, and his diploma says Structural Engineering. His college did not offer timber design, which he wished he had taken. My diploma, UC Irvine, says Civil Engineer specialized in Structural Engr. I had a required timber class. It seems to matter enough to him when we talk about the minor differences in our schools.

This stats is sort of odd to me. "Two students graduated from the civil and construction engineering program during the 2013-14 academic year. One hundred percent of the 2013-14 graduates passed the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) examination and 100% of the 2013-14 graduates passed the Associate Constructor (AC) examination." Is this an online school? How were they able to work a major in with only 2 students?

800 hours of required work experience may or may not be an issue. Being older you may not have the luxury to live like a college student fresh out of high school with no cares in the world. I was paid pretty well when I interned at Caltrans, more than double minimum wage at the time. But now I am getting people applying to our company and it sounds like they will work for free. I see a lot of resumes every week, and I don't look at the major as I scan them, more at what classes were taken.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

 

[Kay2020]

mtu1972, Thanks for taking the time to look at the curriculum, and for your overall positive comments. You are right, relocation isn't really an option. Even so, I wanted to know whether this program was a totally wrong fit. It sounds like you think I could make it work for me, and that in some ways it could put me at an advantage. It's biggest weakness is a lack of structural design courses. I agree. Are there any ways I can compensate for that?

OldestGuy, thanks for the link. I didn't realize so many schools offered a degree in construction engineering.

Ron, I'm not sure if this changes your opinion, but this degree isn't just construction engineering. It's a BS in "Civil and Construction Engineering". It is ABET accredited. If you go to the link in my post, you will see that it encompasses all of the typical civil engineering areas, but like mtu1972 pointed out, there are no opportunities to specialize in one particular area. I'm sure it's because it is a new program and includes so many construction managment courses. I can't relocate without my husband retiring early. So, I guess my question is twofold: 1) will this degree limit me? (you seem to think yes) 2) So, since I can't relocate, how can I make it work anyway? What can I do (on my own) to compensate for what it lacks? Regarding lack of mobility, I'm not sure that matters much. My husband will never leave Arkansas, but now I'm curious how I can find out more about that. I followed the NCEE link you shared but couldn't see which engineering degrees can be licensed in my state. I'm assuming I can pursue a PE in my state at least since the school's website says so. But it would be nice to verify that.

brandonbw, so it sounds like you are most concerned that it lacks a timber design course? The reason they only had a graduating class of 2 in 2013 is because it is a new program (having just begun in 2010), and 2013 was their first graduating class. They were just accredited this year because it can't be accredited before the program has a graduate. There are 92 students now enrolled in the program.

 

[Kay2020]

I'm told by the adviser at this college that most programs can't fit specialized courses like Timber and Masonry into their programs under the new guidelines for broad civil engineering programs. It used to be more common to be able to specialize in, say structural engineering, as an undergraduate. However, ABET and ASCE want breadth, not specialization at the undergraduate level.

 

[mtu1972]

Kay - you have the senior Design Project class where you could probably get permission to self-study Timber Design and then write the report on what you have learned. In that way you could include it on a resume.

After the BS degree, there are a number of Univ's. that offer Master's programs on line. I got mine from the University of Idaho's Distance Education Program at age 56. It took 6 years while taking 1 class per semester, holding down full-time jobs, and helping raise three children. Never stepped foot on campus. Only had phone and email contact with the Admin Group and my Advisor. It's an option as to getting the additional structural classes.

I don't think they had Timber Design, but in my case it was their program that forced me to become computer literate. Having started with a slide-rule, I had not progressed beyond the calculator for hand calculations in the first 25+ years of my career. Now there are far more programs available than the two with structural options I found when I was looking (Idaho and Kansas State). One drawback is that you pay out of state tuition, but 2 of my 3 employers over that time reimbursed me when each class was successfully completed.

As you already know - you never stop learning. I wouldn't worry about a MSCE degree at the present time, but it is certainly an option as you complete the BSCE and then start on your career path.



gjc

 

[MrHershey]

Check accreditation. If they're not accredited, look somewhere else. A civil engineering degree from a non-accredited schools realistically qualifies you to be a contractor and not much else. Most design firms/companies in the US hire people with the expectation that they will become licensed one day. If your school isn't accredited than you won't meet that criteria and it pretty severely limits your career prospects.

Doing a quick search on ABET's website, the only accredited civil engineering BS degrees in the state of Arkansas are offered by Arkansas and Arkansas State. Arkansas-Little Rock is not listed.

[URL unfurl="true"]http://main.abet.org/aps/Accreditedprogramsearch.aspx[/url]

 

[MrHershey]

And I would doublecheck with them when they say they're accredited even for Construction Engineering, ABET doesn't even list that for that them.

[URL unfurl="true"]http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=428[/url]

 

[Kay2020]

MarkHirschi, they were just recently accredited, as they couldn't even be considered until they had a graduating class. It won't show on the ABET website until they update their system in October. And yes, I will be verifying before I go there, but I see no reason for them to lie about that. It would only come back to bite them.

 

[racookpe1978]

What is YOUR attitude?

"Hardhat" and steel-toes boots using a porta-potty in 30 degree temperatures, then kicking the mud off of your trousers to get to a client meeting to talk about moving rebar and plumbing in a days-old slab because somebody made an error?

Or a office and coat-and-tie-and dress up's to discuss drawing revisions on a computer screen using powerpoint displays around a phone call meeting so that error never happens?

I get 6 figures for field engineering, and would not trade it for a desk job ever again. But - YOU! are one who has to decide where YOU enjoy working and under what conditions. Remember too, I cannot execute a job in the field unless and until several office-type managers and contractor agents and planning engineers have finished their jobs.

 

[Kay2020]

mtu1972, I like your idea of using the senior design project to get credit for learning timber design. I will look into that possiblity. Your advice is always so constructive and creative. Thank you.

racookpe1978, I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying a degree in construction engineering involves more field work? As for me, I'm more of a hardhad, mud on your boots kinda gal. Deskwork is fine too, but I do always feel a little stuffy all dressed up in an office. However, I guess ultimately it would depend on the job. If it involved marketing or sales, I would hate it even if it were outdoors. But solving a problem related to the design/construction of a building sounds fun, and if I could choose, I would prefer the job with more field work.

 

[Lomarandil]

I ended up in "Construction Structural Engineering" almost by accident.. had a general Engineering degree with a Civil specialty, ended up liking Structural and Geotechnical engineering material the most. When my wife had a move for her construction job, I ended up joining that GC as part of their engineering staff.

Now, there is a dichotomy in the field. Some "Construction Engineers" are field engineers and construction management types that do a lot of field work and very few calculations/design. But other "Construction Engineers" like myself are really closer to a traditional structural design engineer, except that our clients are typically the contractors and not the owners. As more and more states are requiring more PE stamped designs for things like falsework, girder erection, and temporary structures, I think the latter will continue to grow. Still a niche, mind you.. but a very fun niche!

Now, because we're that much closer to the field, we do end up making a good number of site visits, working with the field engineers and craft to come up with solutions to problems in construction or in the permanent design. But most of the time, we're working from an office. That would (potentially) help with your location preferences -- if you find a local contractor wanting to bring on an in-house engineer, you'll be a lot more stable than most construction-based jobs.

Honestly, in construction engineering, we don't end up using many of the advanced structural electives -- if you can't explain it to a superintendent, it won't get implemented in the field. There's a lot more basic analysis, intuition, and history of how things have worked in the past. That said, the others are right -- you would want to get a grasp on Timber design.

And of course, if you want to end up in a more traditional design-consulting role, having the practical knowledge of "how things are built" can be sold as an asset for most positions. Sure, you may not be a whiz-bang finite element designer, but I suspect that may not be your favorite cup of tea anyway.

 

[racookpe1978]

Kay2020:

I want to read these recent "real world" questions from the other forums, and "test yourself" two ways: - Well, maybe three ways. 8<)

Piping Forum: thread378-370634

Geotechnical:
Ultimate bearing capacity on Tarmac
Determining Settlement of Utilities under Crane Loading
[Help] Definition needed for some very basic Geotechnical terms.
Specification for bore hole spacing
Design of roads
Modified CA sampler

Mechanical Engineering Forum: thread404-370265

Structural Engineering Forum: thread507-370368

Metal and Metalurgy: thread330-370501

(Did you notice that nagatalluri has three of the geotechnical forum questions? Do you think that makes you wonder about the safety of his projects, his level of experience, and the potential for problems at that site? I'm glad he is asking questions, but ....)

Can you immediately and intuitively "see" the physical hazards and the real-world "construction and assembly" problems in each of these seemingly simple questions from other engineers around the world?

If you can't see the potential problems right now, do you believe you could learn to anticipate such dangers? Does preventing these hazards or problems - even if they are opposed by others, or are going to cost others - interest you? Would you be interested in predicting and preventing these kind of problems ... and get paid (a lot of money) for doing just that?​

Do you have a grasp of what each writer is trying to describe, of what the readily apparent (visible) hazards are to themselves, their workers, and their project? Can you anticipate not-so-readily-apparent hazards?

Could you apply your current training and experience, your future classes, and your future experience to anticipate AND PREVENT such hazards from occurring to future construction workers? If (and when) you fail, can you live with the failure and learn from it?